OBAMA Tax Increase? Massive Tobacco Tax Increase by Congress Spells Even More Economic Disaster for Jobs and State Economies

by **HotParadox** Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:01 pm

Obama promised not to raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 a year. But almost every smoker in the US makes less than that and many smokers, if not most, are blue collar.

Also, even if you are a non-smoker this tax would still impact you. If the federal excise tax on cigarettes and tobacco products is increased, your state stands to lose state excise tax revenue and MSA payments.

If Obama breaks his campaign promise to not raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 a year, will you be okay with this or will you see it as a tactic he used to sway the average voter?

To see how much money your state stands to lose, see the chart contained within the link:.

http://news.prnewswire.com/ViewContent.aspx?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-12-2009/0004953331&EDATE=

by thomasjay Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:30 pm

from the bottom of your link:
SOURCE National Association of Tobacco Outlets

Why would you even want to post this disingenous crock of shit? Are you that desperate to tear this man down before he has a chance? Why?
First off, anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.
Secondly, do you honestly think any state is going to reduce it's tobbacco taxes/revenues because the Feds increase the federal excise tax by $0.61? Why, so cigarette prices stay the same? Give me a break. Rolling Eyes

The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.

National Association of Tobbacco Outlets...unbelievable Laughing

by **HotParadox** Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:05 pm

thomasjay wrote:from the bottom of your link:
SOURCE National Association of Tobacco Outlets

Why would you even want to post this disingenous crock of shit? Are you that desperate to tear this man down before he has a chance? Why?
First off, anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.
Secondly, do you honestly think any state is going to reduce it's tobbacco taxes/revenues because the Feds increase the federal excise tax by $0.61? Why, so cigarette prices stay the same? Give me a break. The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.

National Association of Tobbacco Outlets...unbelievable

Look, let's get something straight.

If you disagree with my position, fine. That's what we are here for. But if you are here to attack me, you have a lot to learn about debating. And me.

I am not desperate for anything. I am not tearing him down. I am posting a topic that some may find interesting and some may not. You get to pick and chose.

If you want to debate with me, make your points and I'll make mine. Otherwise, do not bother me.

by **box86rowh** Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:15 pm

I think it is just a sneaky way to get around the campaign promise that changed constantly anyway....he knew that wouldn't work...

by thomasjay Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:26 am

Let's get something straight, when I see bullshit I call it bullshit- or other expressions with the same meaning.

Questioning your motivation for the post isn't attacking you either, it's a legitimate question.I don't know you or your positions, but I suspect you're intelligent enough to recognize that an article from the National Association of Tobbacco Outlets screaming about Obama breaking promises,hurting the middle class and causing economic disaster all because Congress might raise tobbacco excise taxes is a biased piece of crap.

Oh wait a minute.. maybe you think I was attacking you when I said

anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.

as a response to you saying

If Obama breaks his campaign promise to not raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 a year, will you be okay with this or will you see it as a tactic he used to sway the average voter?

If so, I was responding to the guy quoted in the article, I hadn't noticed what you had written at the bottom, so please don't think that was directed at you.

You know as well as I do though that the campaign promise was specifically not to raise income taxes on people making less than $250,000 That's a hard fact, not a subjective opinion open to debate. Raising tobbacco excise taxes is not breaking that promise and that is a fact, not an opinion. To assert otherwise sure looks like trying to tear him down to me. (that is an opinion, see the difference?)

HP wrote: I am posting a topic that some may find interesting and some may not. You get to pick and chose.

Yes, some people found birth certificates, preachers, babymamas, service records and spousal drug problems(depending on which fringe they're on) to be interesting and vitally important subjects throughout the campaign. Were they posted on this board alot? Because quite honestly if thats the general level of political discourse here, it's not a place I want to be.

by Theophilus Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:22 am

HotParadox wrote:
thomasjay wrote:from the bottom of your link:
SOURCE National Association of Tobacco Outlets

Why would you even want to post this disingenous crock of shit? Are you that desperate to tear this man down before he has a chance? Why?
First off, anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.
Secondly, do you honestly think any state is going to reduce it's tobbacco taxes/revenues because the Feds increase the federal excise tax by $0.61? Why, so cigarette prices stay the same? Give me a break. The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.

National Association of Tobbacco Outlets...unbelievable
Look, let's get something straight.

If you disagree with my position, fine. That's what we are here for. But if you are here to attack me, you have a lot to learn about debating. And me.

I am not desperate for anything. I am not tearing him down. I am posting a topic that some may find interesting and some may not. You get to pick and chose.

If you want to debate with me, make your points and I'll make mine. Otherwise, do not bother me.

I would hope thomasjay gets to know you a little better. You are a wonderful person.

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:30 am

thomasjay wrote:The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.

They should be $70.00/pack.

Imagine! The government has to carefully control the tax on tobacco so the industry isn't too financially disadvantaged to the point where they kill their cash cow and at the same time they cry tears of blood when someone dies of lung cancer. Not to mention Heart disease, lung diseases and 4/5ths of every type of cancer you could name.

Unbelievable!

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:40 am

thomasjay wrote:
Yes, some people found birth certificates, preachers, babymamas, service records and spousal drug problems(depending on which fringe they're on) to be interesting and vitally important subjects throughout the campaign. Were they posted on this board alot? Because quite honestly if thats the general level of political discourse here, it's not a place I want to be.

Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:21 am

catch-22 wrote:
thomasjay wrote:The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.
They should be $70.00/pack.

Imagine! The government has to carefully control the tax on tobacco so the industry isn't too financially disadvantaged to the point where they kill their cash cow and at the same time they cry tears of blood when someone dies of lung cancer. Not to mention Heart disease, lung diseases and 4/5ths of every type of cancer you could name.

Unbelievable!

That was my point, thank you C for understanding what I was trying to stir up for the sake of debate. The piece was CLEARLY from the tobacco industry. Already they are on his case saying that he's "breaking promises". And there will be those that will agree. That's why I asked, if this goes through does this bother you? I was not taking the side of the tobacco industry. I know you know that; I'm just clarifying.

Do what ever it takes to keep cigarettes out of my kids pockets, is my feeling. $70 a pack you say? I'll raise you to $100 a pack! Very Happy

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:23 am

howdy wrote:
HotParadox wrote:
thomasjay wrote:from the bottom of your link:
SOURCE National Association of Tobacco Outlets

Why would you even want to post this disingenous crock of shit? Are you that desperate to tear this man down before he has a chance? Why?
First off, anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.
Secondly, do you honestly think any state is going to reduce it's tobbacco taxes/revenues because the Feds increase the federal excise tax by $0.61? Why, so cigarette prices stay the same? Give me a break. The feds and states routinely increase tobbacco taxes, that's why we have $7.00/pack cigs in New Jersey.

National Association of Tobbacco Outlets...unbelievable
Look, let's get something straight.

If you disagree with my position, fine. That's what we are here for. But if you are here to attack me, you have a lot to learn about debating. And me.

I am not desperate for anything. I am not tearing him down. I am posting a topic that some may find interesting and some may not. You get to pick and chose.

If you want to debate with me, make your points and I'll make mine. Otherwise, do not bother me.

I would hope thomasjay gets to know you a little better. You are a wonderful person.

I appreciate your kind words, howdy. Thank you.

Hot

by thomasjay Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:33 am

Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!

No, I did not come here to bust ass and stir the pot.
Point taken it's a new board though. So I just took a trip to the scam forums and reading through a number of non-spam threads, its's not a place I would ever hang out and unlikely this would be either. Should have done that before I accepted steves invitation and registered here. My bad.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:40 am

Sorry mate, I wanted you to be here.

I have experienced the same sort of needless aggression over the past 24 hours.

Maybe I will have a rethink as well.

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:43 am

thomasjay wrote:
Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!
No, I did not come here to bust ass and stir the pot.
Point taken it's a new board though. So I just took a trip to the scam forums and reading through a number of non-spam threads, its's not a place I would ever hang out and unlikely this would be either. Should have done that before I accepted steves invitation and registered here. My bad.

Why not stay and try it for a while, tj?

Our style's a little laid back here, we're debating and having fun with friends that we've been with and known for a couple/a few years. We're pretty chill with each other and you might come to like that.

All the best,
Hot

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:46 am

thomasjay wrote:
Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!
No, I did not come here to bust ass and stir the pot.
Point taken it's a new board though. So I just took a trip to the scam forums and reading through a number of non-spam threads, its's not a place I would ever hang out and unlikely this would be either. Should have done that before I accepted steves invitation and registered here. My bad.

Well, I did qualify it with an IF.
I, for one, hope you stick around.
If you're a friend of Steves' ya can't be all that bad, right?
We're still finding our feet here though you'll find associations that go way back which is why some of us are quick to defend.

Stick around! Start a few threads and see where it floats. You might be pleasantly surprised to see how intelligent we really are!

What a Face

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:47 am

Not a good sign when someone as well read and intelligent as Tom comes on here, and feels the need to cease to do so, after ONE day.

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:49 am

HotParadox wrote:
thomasjay wrote:
Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!
No, I did not come here to bust ass and stir the pot.
Point taken it's a new board though. So I just took a trip to the scam forums and reading through a number of non-spam threads, its's not a place I would ever hang out and unlikely this would be either. Should have done that before I accepted steves invitation and registered here. My bad.
Why not stay and try it for a while, tj?

Our style's a little laid back here, we're debating and having fun with friends that we've been with and known for a couple/a few years. We're pretty chill with each other and you might come to like that.

All the best,
Hot

Good for you, Hot.

While I was typing my post you already said the same thing I was.

Actually, that's a bit freaky! affraid

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:56 am

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Sorry mate, I wanted you to be here.

I have experienced the same sort of needless aggression over the past 24 hours.

Maybe I will have a rethink as well.

Are you kidding?
When did you develop such a thin skin?

I mean, we know you're no sook. What gives?

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:59 am

No, I am not kidding.

How can it be a positive to lose a new member, who I can assure you, would have brought a lot to this place?

Why would I want to stick around, if last night's post against me, totally needless, is an example of the quality of response here?

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:06 am

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:No, I am not kidding.

How can it be a positive to lose a new member, who I can assure you, would have brought a lot to this place?

Why would I want to stick around, if last night's post against me, totally needless, is an example of the quality of response here?

Good point! Perhaps I was wrong.

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:12 am

catch-22 wrote:
HotParadox wrote:
thomasjay wrote:
Um, this is a new board! Not a lot of anything has been posted yet but you probably don't realize that yet since you only just got here.

If you came here to bust some ass and stir the pot, then maybe this isn't the place for you!
No, I did not come here to bust ass and stir the pot.
Point taken it's a new board though. So I just took a trip to the scam forums and reading through a number of non-spam threads, its's not a place I would ever hang out and unlikely this would be either. Should have done that before I accepted steves invitation and registered here. My bad.
Why not stay and try it for a while, tj?

Our style's a little laid back here, we're debating and having fun with friends that we've been with and known for a couple/a few years. We're pretty chill with each other and you might come to like that.

All the best,
Hot
Good for you, Hot.

While I was typing my post you already said the same thing I was.

Actually, that's a bit freaky!

Too funny, C!!! You and I did that once before on scam.

This belongs in a Freaky Science thread, haha! affraid

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:15 am

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:No, I am not kidding.

How can it be a positive to lose a new member, who I can assure you, would have brought a lot to this place?

Why would I want to stick around, if last night's post against me, totally needless, is an example of the quality of response here?

And I might say the same. So why don't we rise above this and end it right here, please.

by **Old Timer** Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:40 pm

thomasjay wrote:Let's get something straight, when I see bullshit I call it bullshit- or other expressions with the same meaning.

Questioning your motivation for the post isn't attacking you either, it's a legitimate question.I don't know you or your positions, but I suspect you're intelligent enough to recognize that an article from the National Association of Tobbacco Outlets screaming about Obama breaking promises,hurting the middle class and causing economic disaster all because Congress might raise tobbacco excise taxes is a biased piece of crap.

Oh wait a minute.. maybe you think I was attacking you when I said
anybody who paid any attention during the election and has half a brain understands the 250k pledge was with regards to income tax rates.
as a response to you saying
If Obama breaks his campaign promise to not raise taxes on anyone making less than $250,000 a year, will you be okay with this or will you see it as a tactic he used to sway the average voter?
If so, I was responding to the guy quoted in the article, I hadn't noticed what you had written at the bottom, so please don't think that was directed at you.

You know as well as I do though that the campaign promise was specifically not to raise income taxes on people making less than $250,000 That's a hard fact, not a subjective opinion open to debate. Raising tobbacco excise taxes is not breaking that promise and that is a fact, not an opinion. To assert otherwise sure looks like trying to tear him down to me. (that is an opinion, see the difference?)

HP wrote: I am posting a topic that some may find interesting and some may not. You get to pick and chose.
Yes, some people found birth certificates, preachers, babymamas, service records and spousal drug problems(depending on which fringe they're on) to be interesting and vitally important subjects throughout the campaign. Were they posted on this board alot? Because quite honestly if thats the general level of political discourse here, it's not a place I want to be.

Hey guy why don't you watch your language. If you want to foul mouth someone then please go some place else.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:38 pm

Yeah, chase away new members, on a new forum.

What a winning idea.

Rolling Eyes

by **Old Timer** Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:11 pm

Maybe he never heard of manners either. Didn't we get enough of that foul language in the other place. You want it here OK, others want it here OK. Sorry to see that but I will not be here. Stuff like that is like a cancer. It spreads and gets worse. Please let me know what you want.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:33 pm

Well, I didn't read him swear, did he?

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have debated with him online before, and I know his style well enough, and had our fall out's.

But I do know that if one thing gets up his nose is if he feels that anyone is trying to circulate misinformation.

He knows more about politics and political history than anyone on here, and then some.

by **Old Timer** Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:36 pm

Let's get something straight, when I see bullshit I call it bullshit-

One of several. As I said, once it starts it will spread. Call him back if you will. I have nothing against him but I will no longer be around when th language starts to fly again.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:40 pm

Old Timer wrote:Let's get something straight, when I see bullshit I call it bullshit-

One of several. As I said, once it starts it will spread. Call him back if you will. I have nothing against him but I will no longer be around when th language starts to fly again.

Well, I don't want that either, but if you are going to call someone out, then be consistant, at least.

Are you HP's PR Dept?

Laughing

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:10 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:
Old Timer wrote:Let's get something straight, when I see bullshit I call it bullshit-

One of several. As I said, once it starts it will spread. Call him back if you will. I have nothing against him but I will no longer be around when th language starts to fly again.

Well, I don't want that either, but if you are going to call someone out, then be consistant, at least.

Are you HP's PR Dept?

Steve, please stop.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:34 pm

Stop what? This is a dialogue between me and OT, with a pinch og humour thrown in for good measure.

I thought that might be clear by the use of Laughing

Don't let this mod status go to yer head!

Wink

by **HotParadox** Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:00 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Stop what? This is a dialogue between me and OT, with a pinch og humour thrown in for good measure.

I thought that might be clear by the use of

Don't let this mod status go to yer head!

Steve, please stop.

This is the third time I have asked you to please stop, once on another thread.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:22 pm

Yes, I can read that. What is it you want me to stop? I was having a discussion with OT. I threw in a little humour. What about it?

Jeez, please relax!

by **CarolinaHound** Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:26 pm

Why would you even want to post this disingenous crock of shit? Are you that desperate to tear this man down before he has a chance? Why?

First, that was out of line. No one like to be made to feel stupid or be belittled for posting their opinion. Well read or not, that comment had no couth (Spelling? Guess that shows my intellect huh? Very Happy

) or class, nor was it it a remark that a well read, intelligent person should make.

Second. I'm sick and tired of the non-smokers bigotry toward us smokers. You all are the ones wanting fresh air. Why do we have to go outside? Non-smokers should be made to pay the same amount of taxes us smokers do for their non-smoking environments just to pay for the care we need for the pneumonia we're getting from having to go outside, walk a mile in the cold and rain just to smoke a freakin cigarette. And then the pneumonia get's blamed on our smoking... go figure. It's smokeist I tell you! Blatent smokestism!
Wink

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:32 pm

There were many who were so smug when they brought in an entire smoking ban in ALL public places, here.

Good for them.

Now, try asking some of them if the drive.

If they nod, then tell them you are just as sick sucking up their fumes all the time, as well as the dangers of getting mowed down.

Soon shuts 'em up.

Wink

by **CarolinaHound** Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:39 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:There were many who were so smug when they brought in an entire smoking ban in ALL public places, here.

Good for them.

Now, try asking some of them if the drive.

If they nod, then tell them you are just as sick sucking up their fumes all the time, as well as the dangers of getting mowed down.

Soon shuts 'em up.

hehehe, that's a good one. They're trying to pass no smoking in parks.. OUTSIDE here in NC. They really need to please get out out of my business. I don't mind not smoking in a restaurant or a place like that. But to ban it in a bar? Please, nobody that is in a bar is too concerned with their health in the first place. If the liquor don't get ya a drunks gonna stab ya. or run over ya.

And what about all those doctor bills we're having to pay for those health poor people who break an ankle running? And that tax money is just as much mine as it is theirs... more so cause I pay so much tax when I'm buying smokes. lol

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:43 pm

The motive is good.

The method is questionable.

The Government makes plenty on tax from cigs, yet they send out these anti smoking messages, to everyone.

Rolling Eyes

by **CarolinaHound** Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:02 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:The motive is good.

The method is questionable.

The Government makes plenty on tax from cigs, yet they send out these anti smoking messages, to everyone.

It's just like drugs. If they ever did stop drugs, do you have any idea how much money they'd lose from fines lawyers fees and the judges kickbacks? They don't want people to stop doing drugs.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:05 pm

And the reason they will not decriminalise?

Not concern for the little people.

But due to pressure from the tobacco and drink industries, who would lose out on trade.

by **CarolinaHound** Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:21 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:And the reason they will not decriminalise?

Not concern for the little people.

But due to pressure from the tobacco and drink industries, who would lose out on trade.

Yep, that's why.

by Cartoon Head Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:24 pm

Well, that is one of the reasons.

The other is that there would be moral outrage Rolling Eyes

, usually from those that were drinkers and smokers.

They don't see what they do as being in the same league, yet really it is, in many ways.

by **catch-22** Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:01 pm

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:There were many who were so smug when they brought in an entire smoking ban in ALL public places, here.

Good for them.

Now, try asking some of them if the drive.

If they nod, then tell them you are just as sick sucking up their fumes all the time, as well as the dangers of getting mowed down.

Soon shuts 'em up.

Then I usually ask if they have any figures to compare mortality rates of people dying from smoking related diseases and dirvers dying from carbon emmissions.

Deaths from smoking related diseases = 438,000 per year

Deaths from car emissions = 60,000 per year

Can't find any stats on how many smoking drivers get mowed down each year! Wink

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