In Our Image...

The possibility of life on other planets has long fascinated me.

I have to say two things here.

First, there is no conclusive evidence that there is any life, let alone developed, on any planet, anyplace in the universe.

Second, having said that, even esteemed scientists would concede that on the scale of probables, it is probably high.

I don't really want this to turn into a typical UFO thread, but I do want to ask this.

Why is it that those who claim to have actually seen beings, or had contact with them, usually describe them in a very humanoid fashion?

One need only look at inverts or in the ocean to see great diversity on THIS planet, why then does it follow that a real alien species, from a planet light years away, would get to look so human in form?

Is there perhaps an evolutionary reason for this?

Or is it yet another case of man imagining something, in his own image?

Another thought.

Why has there never been a UFO pic that is clear?

Usually they are fuzzy or a mere speck of light.

Surely someone would have caught a decent quality pic, by now, unless, once again, there is a reason in physics that might explain the poor standard of pics?

I think it's all explained by Occam's razor, unfortunately.

The reason the photos are blurry is because if they were sharp it wouldn't look a UFO. It would look like a baloon, or a frisbee, or a plane.

The reason people describe aliens as being humanoid is because they have imagined them. It's no coincidence that people describe aliens as looking the same way as they've seen them look in cartoons and magazines.

Why not use their imagination a little more, then?

That said, as I mentioned, I feel that in terms of probability, the odds are high that there are many planets with life, out there.

The odds are good that there is life... however, what are the odds that a civilization has developed a method of traversing the tremendous distances involved? In my experience we've hypothesised about methods, but that's about it.

PaulM wrote:The odds are good that there is life... however, what are the odds that a civilization has developed a method of traversing the tremendous distances involved? In my experience we've hypothesised about methods, but that's about it.

Hominids have only been around for about 3 and a half million years on Earth, but what if other life-forms similar to ours have been around for 10 million years or so on other planets?

PaulM wrote:The odds are good that there is life... however, what are the odds that a civilization has developed a method of traversing the tremendous distances involved? In my experience we've hypothesised about methods, but that's about it.

Difficult to answer, mate.

I guess if they happened to be a million or so years ahead of us in their technology, it would be more than possible, but very plausible. Look how far we have come with science and tech, esp in the past 60yrs? Imagine extending that time line over a longer period, a million years, as I said, or even a thousand.

I love the way everyone always talks about " life "out there in space. It seems that about everyone thinks of life as we see it in the mirror namely ourselfs, humans. Is anyone else besides me here considering the fact that there may well be life everywhere out there. But not as we know it or see it , but rather as we do not know it or can even possibly conceive it to be, but life none the less. And possibly far more advanced mentally than we could ever hope to be. If we are the only life form anywhere, we are indeed in trouble as we seem to want to kill and destroy everything that we don't understand and even ourselves. If we didn't, why did we build such great weapons of mass destruction for.

going out for a bite see ya all in a bit.

Could it be that these alien beings look similar to the way we do not because we are seeing them in our image, but what if we are in their image?

Follow me here. It has been argued by Zacharia Sitchen that life as we know it was genetically engineered and placed here by a race of beings leaps and bounds more advanced than us. He uses ancient Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Biblical texts to draw this conclusion. Think about the Bible for a second. I will use this example since most people have a general understanding of the Bible.

If you lived in biblical times with zero technology, and some being came down from the sky and gave messages to the people, wouldn't that be interpereted as "the Gods have commanded". Since these people have no concept of space travel and ships and things of that nature, they would look for ways to explain events that they couldn't explain. Couldn't two beings walking aboard a spacecraft and taking off be described as decending into the heavens in a "chariot of fire". Isn't it possible that the Ark of the Covenant that would kill a man if he touched it, might have actually been some kind of high capacity battery that would electricute you? Primative man would have no way to explain this powerful device. Remember, it was made of gold, which is one of the best conductors of electricity.

Is it possible that these UFOs are not showing up here to detroy us or study us. They're checking on us, much like a kid would go and check on his ant farm every few days?

If you have never heard of this I would recommend reading The 12th Planet and Genesis Revisited, both are excellent reads.

Big Slick wrote:Could it be that these alien beings look similar to the way we do not because we are seeing them in our image, but what if we are in their image?

Follow me here. It has been argued by Zacharia Sitchen that life as we know it was genetically engineered and placed here by a race of beings leaps and bounds more advanced than us. He uses ancient Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Biblical texts to draw this conclusion. Think about the Bible for a second. I will use this example since most people have a general understanding of the Bible.

If you lived in biblical times with zero technology, and some being came down from the sky and gave messages to the people, wouldn't that be interpereted as "the Gods have commanded". Since these people have no concept of space travel and ships and things of that nature, they would look for ways to explain events that they couldn't explain. Couldn't two beings walking aboard a spacecraft and taking off be described as decending into the heavens in a "chariot of fire". Isn't it possible that the Ark of the Covenant that would kill a man if he touched it, might have actually been some kind of high capacity battery that would electricute you? Primative man would have no way to explain this powerful device. Remember, it was made of gold, which is one of the best conductors of electricity.

Is it possible that these UFOs are not showing up here to detroy us or study us. They're checking on us, much like a kid would go and check on his ant farm every few days?

If you have never heard of this I would recommend reading The 12th Planet and Genesis Revisited, both are excellent reads.

An interesting idea, and not a new one either.

It is more or less what Rael and a few others have claimed, over the years.

Like I say, the jury is out for me.

I am not sure that I agree with Kazza's assertion that we see them in our image, only because they are imaginary.

Using that rationale, that would mean that if they were described as looking like a Giant Squid,would it make the claims more valid....

Hey, have you heard of that fella who claims that he can summon UFO's out of the air, on command?

There is lots of footage about him on You Tube.

Call UFOs? I call Bullshit on that one. Is he an illusionist like David Blaine or Chris Angel?

I'm not familiar with Rael? Who is that?

He claims to be the last of the prophets (sic).

Just like Jesus and Mohammed and all the others did.

His claims are outlandish at times, but no more so than those of who believe in a conventional ideal of a god, are they?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Vorilhon

As for the fella that claims he can call down UFO's (he says they are unmanned craft), here is some info on him..




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet_yahweh



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1562039690219561839

And here I thought that I was the only one here from another planet. Now you guys are talking about all of this other alien stuff. Well yer all wrong. I am just an advance scout setting this miserable place up for the takeover by our glorious empire. Wont be long now, they are coming. hahahahahahahahahahahaha

One poll suggested that something close to 75% of Americans beleived that UFO's were alien craft.

Read into that what you will....

Big Slick wrote:Could it be that these alien beings look similar to the way we do not because we are seeing them in our image, but what if we are in their image?

Follow me here. It has been argued by Zacharia Sitchen that life as we know it was genetically engineered and placed here by a race of beings leaps and bounds more advanced than us. He uses ancient Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Biblical texts to draw this conclusion. Think about the Bible for a second. I will use this example since most people have a general understanding of the Bible.

If you lived in biblical times with zero technology, and some being came down from the sky and gave messages to the people, wouldn't that be interpereted as "the Gods have commanded". Since these people have no concept of space travel and ships and things of that nature, they would look for ways to explain events that they couldn't explain. Couldn't two beings walking aboard a spacecraft and taking off be described as decending into the heavens in a "chariot of fire". Isn't it possible that the Ark of the Covenant that would kill a man if he touched it, might have actually been some kind of high capacity battery that would electricute you? Primative man would have no way to explain this powerful device. Remember, it was made of gold, which is one of the best conductors of electricity.

Is it possible that these UFOs are not showing up here to detroy us or study us. They're checking on us, much like a kid would go and check on his ant farm every few days?

If you have never heard of this I would recommend reading The 12th Planet and Genesis Revisited, both are excellent reads.

It's possible, but there's zero evidence in support of it. To use the oft-quoted example given to theists, it's also possible there's a teacup in orbit somewhere aroudn the sun, there's just no evidence of it.

I figure, either they don't want us to know they're out there, in which case we damn sure wouldn't know. Or else they do want us to know, in which case they would make themselves known.

I can't imagine any reason they would only show themselves to uneducated folk in the middle of nowhere. Or why they would appear to people 2000 years ago and work miracles, but not show themselves today.

Anywho, the problem regarding aliens is often called the Fermi paradox. In short form the paradox is - "Where the f*&# is everyone?".

If life is common, then the universe has been around for so long that we should see life forms everywhere. Obviously we don't see this. Many resolutions to the paradox have been proposed.

- Life is very uncommon. Maybe it's highly unusual for life to begin, in which case we may be the only ones. However, the fact that life began on Earth almost immediately (on a cosmic scale) after catastrophic meteor bombardment ended suggests that life is probably pretty common.

- Intelligent life is very uncommon. Life started on Earth almost straight away, but it took 3.5 billion years before we ended up with intelligent life. If a meteor hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs, we probably still wouldn't have it. Maybe life is very common, but maybe intelligence is rare.

- The universe isn't hospitable to life. There are many things that can wipe out life. Meteor impacts for example. A more likely explanation is supernovas. A supernova could kill off everything in a large portion of the galaxy instantly. Perhaps supernovas occur frequently enough that life is wiped out before it can spread throughout the universe.

- The "zoo hypothesis". Maybe there is intelligent life out there, but they are actively preventing us from seeing them. Maybe they block all of their signals from reaching us for some reason. This is possible, but then we're talking about a society so much larger than ours, and assuming they all have a common goal. Just think about how we have people protesting at zoos, and setting animals free. All it would take is one alien activist to get around the security and park their spaceship on top of the whitehouse.

- Life is out there, but we don't recognise it. Maybe there are enormous civilizations out there, and we just don't recognise them as such. Maybe they are on a much larger scale, or not transmitting using electromagnetic radiation.

- Maybe advanced species tend not to expand. It's possible that an advanced species uploads themselves into a big computer. Inside that computer they could live forever, never experience hunger or pain, and live any sort of life they desire for as long as they desire. Why would they bother heading out into the universe.

- Maybe life is out there, but they are hiding. Perhaps there's a reason they're not broadcasting their location throughout the universe the way we are.


Anyway, they're all the ones I can think of right now.

I am with KAZZA in this topic. Though that being said. I would not doubt that the universe is teeming with life. You just have to ask yourself what in the world would they(who is they?) want to do with us? You would have to be very advanced to travel here to Earth. Even from the closest place that we know may support life. So if you were you so advanced, why would you want to come here? Not saying anything against us as humans, but really.

From the Bill Mack radio show.......

Why is it that everything we have looking for intelligent life pointed away from Earth?

Kazza wrote:Anywho, the problem regarding aliens is often called the Fermi paradox. In short form the paradox is - "Where the f*&# is everyone?".

If life is common, then the universe has been around for so long that we should see life forms everywhere. Obviously we don't see this. Many resolutions to the paradox have been proposed.

- Life is very uncommon. Maybe it's highly unusual for life to begin, in which case we may be the only ones. However, the fact that life began on Earth almost immediately (on a cosmic scale) after catastrophic meteor bombardment ended suggests that life is probably pretty common.

- Intelligent life is very uncommon. Life started on Earth almost straight away, but it took 3.5 billion years before we ended up with intelligent life. If a meteor hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs, we probably still wouldn't have it. Maybe life is very common, but maybe intelligence is rare.

- The universe isn't hospitable to life. There are many things that can wipe out life. Meteor impacts for example. A more likely explanation is supernovas. A supernova could kill off everything in a large portion of the galaxy instantly. Perhaps supernovas occur frequently enough that life is wiped out before it can spread throughout the universe.

- The "zoo hypothesis". Maybe there is intelligent life out there, but they are actively preventing us from seeing them. Maybe they block all of their signals from reaching us for some reason. This is possible, but then we're talking about a society so much larger than ours, and assuming they all have a common goal. Just think about how we have people protesting at zoos, and setting animals free. All it would take is one alien activist to get around the security and park their spaceship on top of the whitehouse.

- Life is out there, but we don't recognise it. Maybe there are enormous civilizations out there, and we just don't recognise them as such. Maybe they are on a much larger scale, or not transmitting using electromagnetic radiation.

- Maybe advanced species tend not to expand. It's possible that an advanced species uploads themselves into a big computer. Inside that computer they could live forever, never experience hunger or pain, and live any sort of life they desire for as long as they desire. Why would they bother heading out into the universe.

- Maybe life is out there, but they are hiding. Perhaps there's a reason they're not broadcasting their location throughout the universe the way we are.


Anyway, they're all the ones I can think of right now.

A very well written post, Kazza.

Thanks.

Kazza wrote:
It's possible, but there's zero evidence in support of it. To use the oft-quoted example given to theists, it's also possible there's a teacup in orbit somewhere aroudn the sun, there's just no evidence of it.

I figure, either they don't want us to know they're out there, in which case we damn sure wouldn't know. Or else they do want us to know, in which case they would make themselves known.

I can't imagine any reason they would only show themselves to uneducated folk in the middle of nowhere. Or why they would appear to people 2000 years ago and work miracles, but not show themselves today.

I disagree. I think there is evidence to support it, however that evidence is often written off as folklore, metaphores, or just tought to be impossible.

There are stone tablets dating back thousands of years that show pictures of satalites and rockets flying through the air. These ancient people would have no reference point on rockets and how they work, yet they have drawings of them.

There are pictures of the solar system dating back thousands of years. Pictures that show the sun as the center of our solar system centuries before Galileo. They show all the planets on our solar system, including pluto, which wasn't discovered by modern science until the 1920s. There are written stories about great beings that were here before modern man, that later would be interpreted as god like figures. Yet these earliest of writings did not talk about them like gods, they were just a more advanced people.

These stories also made their way into the Bible which, if you read literally rather than figuratively, you will see a completely different story. Take Genesis for example. Genesis is believed by many scholars to be a compilation of several creation stories, which would explain the inconsistancies and contradictions. Look at some of the wording and stories that often get brushed aside in Sunday School. Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." Some modern Christians will argue that this is the holy Trinity, however that concept does not even exist in Judaism which is where Genesis originally came from (Torah). This verse is referencing more than one person, or maybe even a race of beings.

Genesis 2:1-2 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Verse 4: The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.

Clearly the story is referring to two very distinct and very different forms of life. It doesn't stop in Genesis either. Look in Ezekial, Exodus, Enoch, I could go on and on. There are stories everywhere about beings that decended from the heavens and they often describe strange "suits" the beings have on. (Spacesuits)

So I would have to say that there is actually lots of evidence to support the idea that other life forms are out there and have been here and may have even been the very reason we're here. Go read those two books, unlike the two guys Steve talked about, this author's claims are based on archiology and science rather than being abducted by aliens. Check out the books and form your own opinion.

Kazaa your question about why they were here thousands of years ago but not now is also addressed in those books. It's basically a difference of time. We see everything in terms of our years. Our year is one time round the sun (365 days). Compare that to other planets on our solar system alone. Mercury's year is 88 days. Imagine there are people on Mercury that we visit one a year. They ask why do they only come once every 4 years. Conversly, Jupiter orbits the sun once for every 12 of our years. So if we had visitors from Jupiter once a Jupiter year. We would ask why do they only come once every 12 years? Sitchen estimated that these beings' planet orbits our sun once every 3600 years. I know it sounds crazy but it is actually believeable.

Well there has been many reports made but the governments of the world always refute such reports and people get tired of being laughed at. With all of the governments denying the existence of E.T.'s it seems to me that they are only lending credibility to their existence instead.

Old Timer wrote:Well there has been many reports made but the governments of the world always refute such reports and people get tired of being laughed at. With all of the governments denying the existence of E.T.'s it seems to me that they are only lending credibility to their existence instead.

Maybe the Governments have actually helped perpetuate the myth, in the past?

Misinformation can cover a lot of things.

Big Slick. Are you referring to the giants?

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

Old Timer wrote:Well there has been many reports made but the governments of the world always refute such reports and people get tired of being laughed at. With all of the governments denying the existence of E.T.'s it seems to me that they are only lending credibility to their existence instead.

Maybe the Governments have actually helped perpetuate the myth, in the past?

Misinformation can cover a lot of things.

Not likely as these things go to far back in history. Way before we had a government that had the ablilty do cook us something so radical.

Real or not seems almost immaterial with such things.

Here is a genuine mystery.

Why, since man walked the earth, going across ALL cultures, have a good % of people looked up to the sky, believing their to be a presence that will aid either them, or all of mankind?

Gods, guardian angels, intelligent alien life, one way or the other, they all seem to have this similar theme.

Well I can see no harm in it. The harm doesn't com from above, it comes from what is in our hearts and our minds and our actions.

Is deluding yourself harmful?

Genuine question.

I say it is.

It seems to me that it would have to depend on the person and the circumstances involved. Another vairable would be that as each of us is different then the possibilities are unlimited in that aspect.

Can delusion and misunderstanding ever be a positive over that which has been shown to be true?

I don't think so.

Unless one prefers to live in a bubble of delusion, for whatever reason.

I think that all of us at one time or another retreat into our own little world or bubble as you call it. Where we can for a while escape from all of our problem, cares and worries. Do we not?

Usually, I prefer to face reality.

We all do Steve. But even you like to escpe once in a while. You seem to do it here in the forums with the many types of threads you have started and respond to. They seem to be your enjoyment or escape.

Old Timer wrote:We all do Steve. But even you like to escpe once in a while. You seem to do it here in the forums with the many types of threads you have started and respond to. They seem to be your enjoyment or escape.

Oh for sure. But that is merely entertainment for me. I don't allow it to dicate my life. Those that are religous, their very life decisions are often shaped by beliefs which have no basis in fact, and no evidence to support it. Taken to it's logical conclusion, that could be both damaging and dangerous, mate. As we have seen, all over the world today, as thousands fight over whose god is the best, and whose prophet was the top man.

It's really quite laughable, when you think about that.

No, but you do allow your conviction that no God exists to control your thoughts as is shown in all of these posts. So basically you are no different as your religion is to show and prove that there is no god of any religion. Does this not make you the God of the non belivers.

Old Timer wrote:No, but you do allow your conviction that no God exists to control your thoughts as is shown in all of these posts. So basically you are no different as your religion is to show and prove that there is no god of any religion. Does this not make you the God of the non belivers.

No.

Just a person that doesn't mind challenging strange customs and unfounded claims, be that in real life, or on here.

But your conviction that there is no god is not a challenge, it is a statement. As you are a confirmed atheist, I ask you, can you offer any proof on what you base your convictions on. Now this is for you, so please do not reply with the bit about prove there is, What proof other than a belief, that will stand up beyond the shadow of a doubt, what can you offer.

Old Timer wrote:But your conviction that there is no god is not a challenge, it is a statement. As you are a confirmed atheist, I ask you, can you offer any proof on what you base your convictions on. Now this is for you, so please do not reply with the bit about prove there is, What proof other than a belief, that will stand up beyond the shadow of a doubt, what can you offer.

The correct answer, and the one that I usually give is that there PROBABLY is no god. Not definitely not, probably not. The reason I think there is probably not a god, is that there is an absence of evidence to support it, and a wealth of evidence of contradict it.

Have you ever read Origin Of Species? The Blind Watchmaker? You can pick either up for less than a six pack, and they would explain much better than I ever could hope to.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

Old Timer wrote:But your conviction that there is no god is not a challenge, it is a statement. As you are a confirmed atheist, I ask you, can you offer any proof on what you base your convictions on. Now this is for you, so please do not reply with the bit about prove there is, What proof other than a belief, that will stand up beyond the shadow of a doubt, what can you offer.

The correct answer, and the one that I usually give is that there PROBABLY is no god. Not definitely not, probably not. The reason I think there is probably not a god, is that there is an absence of evidence to support it, and a wealth of evidence of contradict it.

Have you ever read Origin Of Species? The Blind Watchmaker? You can pick either up for less than a six pack, and they would explain much better than I ever could hope to.

You have not answered my questions. Now again, what proof do YOU have that God "probably" does not exist. Not what someone else wrote or said. You stated a wealth of evidence to contradict it. What "evidence" do "you" have.

I don't need to prove it, that is my point.

What you are asking me to do is fall for a common 'trick'.

Kazza would agree on that one.

I am not the one making the fantastic claims.

The proof always lies with the person making the claims.

Either they can give it, in which case, please do, or they cannot, in which case, please beleive whatever you want, just don't expect anyone to give you special treatment because of it. That sounds about fair to me.

Here's something to think about.

The Koran teaches that the prophet Allah was actually once illiterate.

Guess what happened.

God, the same god, he came down from the heavens.

He literally picked up Allah.

He shook him a little.

He gave him the power to be literate, and commanded that he go among his people and make them literate also.

Now.

I am about as sceptical about that story, as I am many of the claims within the bible.

Shouldn't I be?

Shouldn't, in this example, the burden of proof lie with the Muslim who thinks this is historical fact?

I think so.

And here is something else to think about.

God, Thor, Odin, if someone wants to beleive them real, fine, go ahead.

I would not threaten eternal torture to them for doing so.

I would not hurt someone physically for being so.

Yet, god, he DEMANDS that you follow him, otherwise, no matter what good deeds you carry out, you will be basically tortured in 'hell'.

What is that if not psychological terror by god, and his followers?

They are the one's making the threats, not non beleivers.

Again you have tap danced around the question. You have clearly stated that you believe that there is probably no God. You have made this statement, have you not? You yourself must have some idea as to why you believe that. You are always challenging others to prove what they say. so I am challenging you to show your proof for that assumption, what do you base that your belief on. Do you base it on fact or fiction

Old Timer wrote:Again you have tap danced around the question. You have clearly stated that you believe that there is probably no God. You have made this statement, have you not? You yourself must have some idea as to why you believe that. You are always challenging others to prove what they say. so I am challenging you to show your proof for that assumption, what do you base that your belief on. Do you base it on fact or fiction

Based on the TOTAL lack of evidence.

How hard can this be to understand, it surely is the same logic that leads you to make up your mind about anything.