Sick of being messed about

Every bf i have had now has messed me about or broken my heart! And i have lived with that and tried to be a stronger person for it, but now, this guy i really care about and the only other guy i cud possibly see myself with in the future, is taking the **$**

He has a gf, And we have never done anything together because of that, Though i may not be his gf's biggest fan i cud never do that to sum1 and be the other women to a guy!
BUT here's the clencher, not long ago he told me when i was ready to move on and be in a relationship that he would stop being with his gf when i am ready to move on too and that be with me and told me all this stuff about how much he likes me and wants to be with me ect! and it made me so happy because i like him so much but never really said anything!

So i told him yesterday if he's ready i would like to give it a go yeah?
suddenly he goes back on everything he's said, he said he can't chose between me and his gf and he needs more time, i said that i don't like being messed about and he should make a decision, i have to know where i stand, if he wants to be with his gf i will be absolutely gutted but i wouldn't hate him for it and would try to move on, if he would want to be with me (which he claims he does) then i would be over the moon. But he wont give me an answer, says he needs more time and it's easier for me because i aint in a relationshp and I don't have to brake someones heart
so now i have to wait for god knows how long just to know where i stand and i don't think that's fair

X, do you really want to be with someone who would dump the one he's with for something better? I've been on both sides a few times. I was the one a woman left another guy for, and the guy that got left when she thought she could get better. It never fails with someone like that, if they did it once to be with you, they'll do it again to be with someone else.

It's not really fair that he'd use her like that till you decided you wanted him. I guess I'm just old fashioned and think one should be single before chasing after someone else, and that someone else should be single too. Trust me, if he'll cheat on her like that, he'll cheat on you. I love ya, and I don't want to sound judgemental, but that's just how I feel about stuff like that.

he aint cheated on her babes
we aint done nething, i would never do that, and it's not that he can get sum1 better cus trust me she;s well beaiutiful i just dont think he;s happy with her, but tbh he shouldn;t be fucking us both about like this

and hun i totally understand ur point dont worry *hugs* xxx

xshivx wrote:he aint cheated on her babes
we aint done nething, i would never do that, and it's not that he can get sum1 better cus trust me she;s well beaiutiful i just dont think he;s happy with her, but tbh he shouldn;t be fucking us both about like this

and hun i totally understand ur point dont worry *hugs* xxx

Ya know sweetie, I really don't think that jerk really cares about anybody but himself. He is just playing the field to see what he can get and from whom. The chances are that he is lying to both of you and has a third and fourth lined up in the backfield just waiting. You can tell me to bugger off, but guys like him aren't worth the time and effort. When you are no longer of interest to him he will just do the same thing again.

hun im not gonna tell u too bugger off im starting to believe the exact same thing *hugs* xxx

And the world goes on... different day is all that changes, otherwise, same circumstances, through thousands of years with so many people. And it is interesting that is is typically the other person that gets all of the blame... I've heard it often said that there's one person's side of the story, then there's the other person's and the truth is USUALLY found somewhere in between... I believe this helps to get at the truth of the situation, in any situation of human disagreement or difficulty. Another part of the human experience.
Just beating a dead horse to dwell on it and give it so much attention and energy. Best thing is to focus on the future, proceed with better caution, meaning applying wisdom and learn by mistakes - that's mostly where wisdom is gained.

thanks coonite xxx

xshivx wrote:he aint cheated on her babes
we aint done nething, i would never do that, and it's not that he can get sum1 better cus trust me she;s well beaiutiful i just dont think he;s happy with her, but tbh he shouldn;t be fucking us both about like this

and hun i totally understand ur point dont worry *hugs* xxx

He has. "Cheat" is a subjective word, and does not necessarily mean something is/was done. He has betrayed his current GF, merely by suggesting he would leave her for you. It's a betrayal, period. If he was serious, then the above comments by OT,CH, etc., are right on. If he dumps his current for you, he will certainly dump you for the next skirt who tickles his fancy. He is a "playa". He's playing you, whether he does anything with you or not. Your being here talking about it is clear evidence of it. Of course, it's a lot deeper than this (and a lot more complicated), but it is what it is. When we open our heart to love, it's also open to damage. You can't have it only one way. True love can't be discovered without it.

Young men have ONE thing in mind. It's in their (our) genes (so to speak). They will do whatever is necessary to get it, controlled only by their depth of conscience. If love is discovered along the way, it was coincidental. Love has many faces, and usually appears in pairs.

yeah i get that but i dont see cheating as that i see it as actually cheating lol

yeah i agree he has betrayed her by doing that and im not bebating what he's after either cus i agree

dont stop it from hurting though xxx

xshivx wrote:yeah i get that but i dont see cheating as that i see it as actually cheating lol

yeah i agree he has betrayed her by doing that and im not bebating what he's after either cus i agree

dont stop it from hurting though xxx

No doubt. Unfortunately, it's a very necessary part of success. A contrast, necessary for perspective. The lower the lows, the higher the highs. Learn from this, and you'll be a better person for it.

As for "cheating", the physical acts normally associated with it are but the smallest part of the whole picture. Love is not physical, but we force that association. It's a human thing, and has no place in the natural world. Emotional love is every thing it will ever be from the start. Only its depth is discovered as time passes. Human physical needs/wants are primal, and are controlled only by the depth of one's conscience. We could break it down scientifically, but it won't serve your cause, at the moment.

DM007said:/quote: "Young men have ONE thing in mind.". Such statements should typically not be generalized but should be qualified with the word SOME preceding them, wouldn't you say?
There are some that are more respectful to others as well as having decent morals and what is termed: "couth".
Meaning they have been raised to be well mannered and considerate of others. Although I will have to say that these sort are discerned only upon encountering them. But I am still pleasantly gratified to continue to often currently encounter some young folks that are very much this way... both male and female.
However, it seems to follow that if a person is looking for someone "easy" to meet and get acquainted with; often meaning quuickly familiar, then that one is typically throwing caution and proper discernment to the wind.

What if you were his gf now instead of her, and you found out he, knowing he is in a relationship with you, had told her when she got rid of her boyfriend to let him know and he'd dump you to go out with her. Would you not feel like he'd cheated on you?

coontie wrote:DM007said:/quote: "Young men have ONE thing in mind.". Such statements should typically not be generalized but should be qualified with the word SOME preceding them, wouldn't you say?
There are some that are more respectful to others as well as having decent morals and what is termed: "couth".
Meaning they have been raised to be well mannered and considerate of others. Although I will have to say that these sort are discerned only upon encountering them. But I am still pleasantly gratified to continue to often currently encounter some young folks that are very much this way... both male and female.
However, it seems to follow that if a person is looking for someone "easy" to meet and get acquainted with; often meaning quuickly familiar, then that one is typically throwing caution and proper discernment to the wind.

Nope. ALL young men. Respect toward others is a depth of conscience. We all have/had one goal: sowing seeds. How we go about it makes the difference in the means, but the goal is the same. Your conscience decides what you can live with, during the process. Learning respect, manners and consideration are all levels conscience, instilled unto us by the influence of our parents, family, friends, and peers. Social exposures also play a part, in the gage is set for what is "socially acceptable". We discover the limits of our conscience within these exposures. When we exceed these limits, we experience regret. Any person who says he/she has no regrets (and truly believes it), has not exceeded his/her limit of conscience. Mistakes can be rationalized (to ourselves), and this is where our conscience limit is "adjusted". Many mistakes can be justified in this way, but the regret is there, nonetheless. Rationalized mistakes only make the individual feel better, for the moment. These are often referred to as the "skeletons in the closet".

i've already said i have ntohign against the girl
and ofcourse i feel bad for her
nah i wud be heart broken i wudnt feel cheated, sorry! cheated means sumit different to me
i have actually been cheated on before so i know how it feels and i've had my heart broken many times before aswell, so i know both points but i see cheating as something else sorry!
but i dont think this is the point to this thread neways the point is that he shudnt be messing with both of us, i aint gonna do nothing with him because it's not right and he has a gf, it's hime that;s wants to do loadsa stuff!

Sorry X, the way I read the first post made me think you were going to do something and were upset because you had to wait.

You know how us americans can get all mixed up with the language.

no no nooooooooo darling i wud never do nething to hurt either him or the gf bless her it aint her fault

the point was that it's not fair to play with people's emotions like that, and it's not fair on me or the gf

i would never do something like that xxx

Yea, you're right it's not fair or right of him. But what goes around will ussually come back around, and eventually he'll get his emotions jerked just the same.

i hope what goes around comes around for a few other people too lol xxx

It will eventually sweetie.

CarolinaHound wrote:It will eventually sweetie.

Yeah, see what happened to you bums. You wound up with this old fart as a friend. Boy, you guys must have really done something bad for that to happen

Old Timer wrote:

CarolinaHound wrote:It will eventually sweetie.

Yeah, see what happened to you bums. You wound up with this old fart as a friend. Boy, you guys must have really done something bad for that to happen

The thing is I don't remember killing and mutilating anybody, musta been something just as bad though. hehehehe.....



Actually I'm proud to concider myself very lucky to have you as a friend.

xshivx wrote:Every bf i have had now has messed me about or broken my heart! And i have lived with that and tried to be a stronger person for it, but now, this guy i really care about and the only other guy i cud possibly see myself with in the future, is taking the **$**

He has a gf, And we have never done anything together because of that, Though i may not be his gf's biggest fan i cud never do that to sum1 and be the other women to a guy!
BUT here's the clencher, not long ago he told me when i was ready to move on and be in a relationship that he would stop being with his gf when i am ready to move on too and that be with me and told me all this stuff about how much he likes me and wants to be with me ect! and it made me so happy because i like him so much but never really said anything!

So i told him yesterday if he's ready i would like to give it a go yeah?
suddenly he goes back on everything he's said, he said he can't chose between me and his gf and he needs more time, i said that i don't like being messed about and he should make a decision, i have to know where i stand, if he wants to be with his gf i will be absolutely gutted but i wouldn't hate him for it and would try to move on, if he would want to be with me (which he claims he does) then i would be over the moon. But he wont give me an answer, says he needs more time and it's easier for me because i aint in a relationshp and I don't have to brake someones heart
so now i have to wait for god knows how long just to know where i stand and i don't think that's fair

Hey Xshivx, I know read everybodies reponse to is forum that you started, and I will say that I agree with them. The way it sounds is that guy doesn't care about his current gf's feelings. He may not be happy with her but so what. It seems like he only care about himself, his feelings, his image, what he wants, etc., etc., etc. If you do start to have a relationship with him and it didn't work out, do you think that he will leave you and go back to the gf he has now? If he does that would you feel as if he used you?

DM007 wrote:

coontie wrote:DM007said:/quote: "Young men have ONE thing in mind.". Such statements should typically not be generalized but should be qualified with the word SOME preceding them, wouldn't you say?
There are some that are more respectful to others as well as having decent morals and what is termed: "couth".
Meaning they have been raised to be well mannered and considerate of others. Although I will have to say that these sort are discerned only upon encountering them. But I am still pleasantly gratified to continue to often currently encounter some young folks that are very much this way... both male and female.
However, it seems to follow that if a person is looking for someone "easy" to meet and get acquainted with; often meaning quuickly familiar, then that one is typically throwing caution and proper discernment to the wind.

Nope. ALL young men. Respect toward others is a depth of conscience. We all have/had one goal: sowing seeds. How we go about it makes the difference in the means, but the goal is the same. Your conscience decides what you can live with, during the process. Learning respect, manners and consideration are all levels conscience, instilled unto us by the influence of our parents, family, friends, and peers. Social exposures also play a part, in the gage is set for what is "socially acceptable". We discover the limits of our conscience within these exposures. When we exceed these limits, we experience regret. Any person who says he/she has no regrets (and truly believes it), has not exceeded his/her limit of conscience. Mistakes can be rationalized (to ourselves), and this is where our conscience limit is "adjusted". Many mistakes can be justified in this way, but the regret is there, nonetheless. Rationalized mistakes only make the individual feel better, for the moment. These are often referred to as the "skeletons in the closet".

shrugs... uhhhh, ohhhh, okay... you seem to have the full perspective. Which implies that ALL young men [probably all men, in your 'book'] are just natural born corrupt from birth. And obviously, ALL young females and older are just naturally innocent and pure as the driven snow.
God, what a world you must live in...

coontie wrote:

DM007 wrote:

coontie wrote:DM007said:/quote: "Young men have ONE thing in mind.". Such statements should typically not be generalized but should be qualified with the word SOME preceding them, wouldn't you say?
There are some that are more respectful to others as well as having decent morals and what is termed: "couth".
Meaning they have been raised to be well mannered and considerate of others. Although I will have to say that these sort are discerned only upon encountering them. But I am still pleasantly gratified to continue to often currently encounter some young folks that are very much this way... both male and female.
However, it seems to follow that if a person is looking for someone "easy" to meet and get acquainted with; often meaning quuickly familiar, then that one is typically throwing caution and proper discernment to the wind.

Nope. ALL young men. Respect toward others is a depth of conscience. We all have/had one goal: sowing seeds. How we go about it makes the difference in the means, but the goal is the same. Your conscience decides what you can live with, during the process. Learning respect, manners and consideration are all levels conscience, instilled unto us by the influence of our parents, family, friends, and peers. Social exposures also play a part, in the gage is set for what is "socially acceptable". We discover the limits of our conscience within these exposures. When we exceed these limits, we experience regret. Any person who says he/she has no regrets (and truly believes it), has not exceeded his/her limit of conscience. Mistakes can be rationalized (to ourselves), and this is where our conscience limit is "adjusted". Many mistakes can be justified in this way, but the regret is there, nonetheless. Rationalized mistakes only make the individual feel better, for the moment. These are often referred to as the "skeletons in the closet".

shrugs... uhhhh, ohhhh, okay... you seem to have the full perspective. Which implies that ALL young men [probably all men, in your 'book'] are just natural born corrupt from birth. And obviously, ALL young females and older are just naturally innocent and pure as the driven snow.
God, what a world you must live in...

No. I didn't say that, at all. All men are born. You got that part right. Before puberty, boys are just boys, and girls are just girls. After puberty begins, the rules change, and people begin steering toward their primal instinct. Procreation. Some early, some later, depending on one's personal goals and selfishness. Some go the shotgun route (the "playas"), and others go the nurturing route (the Ward Cleavers). Responsibility, respect and morals learned early in life helps determine which route. Still, natural attraction drives a certain type of boy to a certain type of girl. Both have specific requirements in mind, for mating purposes (call it what you want, but that's what it boils down to). This is why a woman may be attractive to some men, and not others (and vice versa). The goal is the same: ensuring the passing on of one's legacy. Men tend to be, historically, more promiscuous. While women tend to be more anchored. This is a natural condition, and we can see this in nearly every wild species. There are some monogamous species, but very few. Of those, their monogamy is unconditional. Homo Sapiens are not among these species. Our monogamy is determined by doctrine, morals (debatable), and programming. Polygamy is "wrong", only because we say it is. "Corrupt" is an interpretation of actions, according to one's point of view, and personal understanding of the process. It isn't corruption. It's nature in motion. Civilization is a resistance of nature.

DM007 wrote:Men tend to be, historically, more promiscuous. While women tend to be more anchored.

This is a common view, but both men and women have exactly the same average number of partners in their lifetime. (It's an absolute certainty if you're not including homosexuality).

It's been my experiance, though hardly scientific, that women are just as; if not more promiscuous then as/than men. And having worked a few times with mostly women, they also talk as much smack and will have conversations that would make even a guy like me blush.

xshivx wrote:Every bf i have had now has messed me about or broken my heart! And i have lived with that and tried to be a stronger person for it, but now, this guy i really care about and the only other guy i cud possibly see myself with in the future, is taking the **$**

He has a gf, And we have never done anything together because of that, Though i may not be his gf's biggest fan i cud never do that to sum1 and be the other women to a guy!
BUT here's the clencher, not long ago he told me when i was ready to move on and be in a relationship that he would stop being with his gf when i am ready to move on too and that be with me and told me all this stuff about how much he likes me and wants to be with me ect! and it made me so happy because i like him so much but never really said anything!

Right there, what i put in bold print. Read that a few times. Instead of feeling happy, a better reaction would have been to feel sorry for his gf and should have caused you to wonder what your values are as well, xs. We know what his values are.

So i told him yesterday if he's ready i would like to give it a go yeah?

So you were effectively encouraging a break-up. Very bad form, xs.

suddenly he goes back on everything he's said, he said he can't chose between me and his gf and he needs more time, i said that i don't like being messed about and he should make a decision, i have to know where i stand, if he wants to be with his gf i will be absolutely gutted but i wouldn't hate him for it and would try to move on, if he would want to be with me (which he claims he does) then i would be over the moon. But he wont give me an answer, says he needs more time and it's easier for me because i aint in a relationshp and I don't have to brake someones heart

He's a player. He dangled the tainted bait. You bit and got what you deserved. Sorry. Plus you asked him to give you an answer. No, no, no. Don't ever be into anyone more than they are into you. And if you are, do not let them know it. And if they are with someone, you need to ask yourself some important question about yourself.

so now i have to wait for god knows how long just to know where i stand and i don't think that's fair

Walk. Run, actually. And examine how you would feel if you were in his present girlfriend's shoes. Do onto others, etc, xs.
Now, let me tell you something. You will be faced with morally correct or incorrect decisions your entire life. How you chose to react to these and other sticky situations will either weaken or strengthen your character as you mature and grow. Just do your best to chose wisely and with compassion for all the players involved in the situation. In fact, as you mature you will find that when you love someone, you will many times sacrifice what you want for the good of your loved ones, be it a spouse, child, parent, etc.

I hope you take this not as an attack, but as honest advice. xs. You asked and I told you exactly what I would tell my Sara or my clients. xo

i realise how it sounds hp but i didn't do nething, he did! and i do feel for his gf i've said that already i think both me and the gf wud be better off without him

xshivx wrote:i realise how it sounds hp but i didn't do nething, he did! and i do feel for his gf i've said that already i think both me and the gf wud be better off without him

Yes, you did, xs. You solicited a relationship with him while he was with his gf. Read your post again, sweetie. It's nothing to be ashamed of xs. You are a KID. But you must recognize that what you did was morally wrong. To brush it aside does nothing in building the strong character that I know is ready to blossom as you mature.

well yeah i was wrong to tell him how i feel i know that, i just wanted u to know i wud never make a move on sum1 who has a gf, he starting talking to me and saying all this stuff and though i told him where to go i told him i liked him too. But apart from that i haven't done nething is what i mean lol

dya get what im syaing or does it all sound like **** ??? lol

xshivx wrote:well yeah i was wrong to tell him how i feel i know that, i just wanted u to know i wud never make a move on sum1 who has a gf, he starting talking to me and saying all this stuff and though i told him where to go i told him i liked him too. But apart from that i haven't done nething is what i mean lol

dya get what im syaing or does it all sound like **** ??? lol

It sounds to me like you are cutting yourself a lot of slack. If you told him you were ready if he was, that tells me, and him, that you were ready to make a move. In fact, that was your move.
Once you own it, you will start to grow from it. Every one of us has done similar things growing up and beyond. What sets the morally intact apart from those who are of a common denominator is how we coddle ourselves vs reprimand and correct ourselves.

i said i was wrong im saying this isn;t something i would normally do

forget it i knwo what im trying to say i cba cus everything im saying is coming out wrong or being read wrong delete the thread pls

xshivx wrote:i said i was wrong im saying this isn;t something i would normally do

Ok, that's good that this is not something you would normally do and hopefully it will not happen again.
I told you this before and I will tell you this again. If you or my Sara ask me for advise and I am being hard on you...you should expect me to.

I know i was wrong HP all im saying is he's dead wrong too ya know?
and no chance wud it happen again
yeah i know hp xxx

xshivx wrote:I know i was wrong HP all im saying is he's dead wrong too ya know?
and no chance wud it happen again
yeah i know hp xxx

Oh, make no mistake. He is dead wrong. But his character flaws are his. You can't do anything about that. I am not letting him off the hook and I did say in my first response to you that we all know what his values apparently are. Don't misunderstand that because I am correcting you that I am saying he is without fault. The interaction is between you and me. If it were between him and me, I would be addressing his faults since I would be counseling him instead of you.

okey dokey xxx

DM007 wrote:

coontie wrote:

DM007 wrote:

coontie wrote:DM007said:/quote: "Young men have ONE thing in mind.". Such statements should typically not be generalized but should be qualified with the word SOME preceding them, wouldn't you say?
There are some that are more respectful to others as well as having decent morals and what is termed: "couth".
Meaning they have been raised to be well mannered and considerate of others. Although I will have to say that these sort are discerned only upon encountering them. But I am still pleasantly gratified to continue to often currently encounter some young folks that are very much this way... both male and female.
However, it seems to follow that if a person is looking for someone "easy" to meet and get acquainted with; often meaning quuickly familiar, then that one is typically throwing caution and proper discernment to the wind.

Nope. ALL young men. Respect toward others is a depth of conscience. We all have/had one goal: sowing seeds. How we go about it makes the difference in the means, but the goal is the same. Your conscience decides what you can live with, during the process. Learning respect, manners and consideration are all levels conscience, instilled unto us by the influence of our parents, family, friends, and peers. Social exposures also play a part, in the gage is set for what is "socially acceptable". We discover the limits of our conscience within these exposures. When we exceed these limits, we experience regret. Any person who says he/she has no regrets (and truly believes it), has not exceeded his/her limit of conscience. Mistakes can be rationalized (to ourselves), and this is where our conscience limit is "adjusted". Many mistakes can be justified in this way, but the regret is there, nonetheless. Rationalized mistakes only make the individual feel better, for the moment. These are often referred to as the "skeletons in the closet".

shrugs... uhhhh, ohhhh, okay... you seem to have the full perspective. Which implies that ALL young men [probably all men, in your 'book'] are just natural born corrupt from birth. And obviously, ALL young females and older are just naturally innocent and pure as the driven snow.
God, what a world you must live in...

No. I didn't say that, at all. All men are born. You got that part right. Before puberty, boys are just boys, and girls are just girls. After puberty begins, the rules change, and people begin steering toward their primal instinct. Procreation. Some early, some later, depending on one's personal goals and selfishness. Some go the shotgun route (the "playas"), and others go the nurturing route (the Ward Cleavers). Responsibility, respect and morals learned early in life helps determine which route. Still, natural attraction drives a certain type of boy to a certain type of girl. Both have specific requirements in mind, for mating purposes (call it what you want, but that's what it boils down to). This is why a woman may be attractive to some men, and not others (and vice versa). The goal is the same: ensuring the passing on of one's legacy. Men tend to be, historically, more promiscuous. While women tend to be more anchored. This is a natural condition, and we can see this in nearly every wild species. There are some monogamous species, but very few. Of those, their monogamy is unconditional. Homo Sapiens are not among these species. Our monogamy is determined by doctrine, morals (debatable), and programming. Polygamy is "wrong", only because we say it is. "Corrupt" is an interpretation of actions, according to one's point of view, and personal understanding of the process. It isn't corruption. It's nature in motion. Civilization is a resistance of nature.

shrugs... [again] not really sure of what you said in either area of your remarks and I have good reading comprehension. "Men are born"; I am actually startled to learn of this... Will have to say that I intuit a great deal of bias, prejudice - too one-sided views; unbalanced.
Well, anyway, I, at this time don't have the care, desire or energy to continue this debate [?] but appreciate your trying to extend rapport. Perhaps will take this up later - I doubt that....
Will have to say that I see a young, inexperienced, immature female that is conducting herself LIKE somebody with a gun running rampant in a crowd, firing at will - this seems to be how she is conducting herself. And to a great extent, knowing all the time that she is playing a dangerous and self-compromising game. But, deliciously loving it all the way! Creating an ongoing dramatic personal soap-opera. It is predictable where it will all end;
another unwanted infant, or two, or three in the world. Conceived through the idea of demonstrating "love and caring" for someone that doesn't really deserve kind and considerate attention from any decent, respectable individual. However, there's a lot of this sort of thing out there - I've seen my share in my time. And no, I haven't been or played a part in any such behavior or conduct. I know it when I see it and loathe it. As I said though, previously: the world continues on and the only thing that changes is the day, otherwise, with SOME, SNAFU [to put it nicely: situation normal, all fouled up!] People will prove to be who they are in the end [gender has nothing to do with the situation]; It is the fiber and sinew of their character, personal being; soul and spirit. Nobody can change this. Like I think to myself sometime, when I see someone on a powerful motorcycle blasting down the road at a hundred plus miles an hour: "that's okay, keep it up, there's an ambulance waiting down the road somewhere, for you. Perhaps with a coffin in it, awaiting your corpse. Or perhaps, a wheelchair after your broken and bruised body recovers and you live out the rest of your days as a paraplegic..."
Anyhow, I have a "full plate" today - saying, lots to do before I go on a long distance cross country trip and will be "out there" several weeks. May wave howdy to O.T. as I pass by, or perhaps through Jackson, Wyoming.
headed for northern California and perhaps Portland Oregon.
Anyhow, ta - ta, all!