Looks like the President is preparing to work out a peace plan between Israel & Palestine!

I, for one, would consider my vote well cast if Obama could succeed in ending the situation there.

The world could do with some good news at the moment.

Obama envoy meets Palestinian leaders in West Bank

I certainly hope the new US administration can help make progress, but there's only so much that anyone outside Israel and the Arab world can do. What happens in the upcoming Israeli elections will be critical.
And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

thomasjay wrote:And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

That was a good article... Thanks for the link.

The fact it comes from Egypt, and seems to hold a more realistic view of the conflict, is quite refreshing. Here are a few of my favorite excerpts:

Being realistic means we have to accept the fact that Israel exists and will continue to exist. The problem with Iran and its proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah, is that they do not want to accept this geopolitical fact. They undoubtedly know that Israel will never disappear, but they have to keep claiming that to score points with their own people, and with people in other countries to get them to turn against their own leaders who do not share their vision.

...

On the international front, Mr. Ahmadinejad has supported Hamas and Hezbollah with funds and arms. Both groups have engaged in battles with Israel, but what did they accomplish? How many Israelis did they kill? In fact, in many instances they never hesitated to commit the major sin of killing fellow Muslims whenever their authority is challenged, such as in Lebanon in November 2007, when the Lebanese government tried to seize control of its national telecom network from Hezbollah; and in Gaza in July 2008, when Hamas seized control of the city, executing Fatah’s soldiers and throwing them off rooftops.

Whether the conflict is with other Arab factions or directly with Israel, the outcome has always been to Israel’s advantage while Arab losses total in the thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

Those who believe that the Arabs can revive their Golden Age and conquer the world with their swords have to think again. Back then, we only needed faith and bravery to win a war; now wars are operated digitally thousands of miles away from battlefields where neither faith nor bravery are in the equation. In fact, you can lack both and still win a war by the push of a button. The unfortunate reality is that Arabs are trailing in these military technologies by tens of years. Those who believe that if Arabs unite and strike Israel as one, they can wipe Israel off the map also have to think again. Israel itself is not the problem. People seem to forget the Israel’s patron, the United States, will never allow it to vanish, and neither will Europe or the UN.

In the 1973 war, Egypt and the Arabs did everything right. Perfectly synchronized attacks from Egypt and Syria were orchestrated; an oil embargo was secretly planned two months before the attack and announced a few days after the war started. When it finally seemed that the Arabs were winning the war, the United States intervened with major re-supplies and within a few days, the balance was back to Israel’s advantage. What the Arabs need to understand is that regrettably they cannot prevail over Israel by the use of force, at least not under the current circumstances. History has shown us that Arabs lost land in every war they fought against Israel, and only gained land with peace. There is no shame in that; victories can also be achieved through peace.

...

It was not because of Hamas’ ineffective Qassam (so-called) rockets; neither was it because of Iran’s hollow words. Ironically, those who are accused of being traitors to the Palestinian and the Arab cause are the ones who chose to save Palestinian lives at the expense of boosting their own image in their home countries. Ironically, those who were accused of being traitors are the same ones truly mourning the deaths of their Palestinian brothers and sisters, while the deluded Hamas are celebrating their so-called victory over Gaza’s ruins.

And I will bet a shiny nickle that it will never end. The killing will go on and on, as it has become like a way o life for them. The fox and the hare can never really be friends because the fox will always be a fox and hunt the hare for supper. Why because it is his nature. They are like the fox and the hare. Only difference is that the hare shoots back here. Ands besides he had better try to clean up his own back yared before he tries to clean up theirs.

Grim17 wrote:

thomasjay wrote:And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

People seem to forget the Israel’s patron, the United States, will never allow it to vanish, and neither will Europe or the UN.

In the 1973 war, Egypt and the Arabs did everything right. Perfectly synchronized attacks from Egypt and Syria were orchestrated; an oil embargo was secretly planned two months before the attack and announced a few days after the war started. When it finally seemed that the Arabs were winning the war, the United States intervened with major re-supplies and within a few days, the balance was back to Israel’s advantage. What the Arabs need to understand is that regrettably they cannot prevail over Israel by the use of force, at least not under the current circumstances. History has shown us that Arabs lost land in every war they fought against Israel, and only gained land with peace. There is no shame in that; victories can also be achieved through peace.

And to think there are some people out there who just can't seem to understand why so many militant arab groups hate the US...

thomasjay wrote:I certainly hope the new US administration can help make progress, but there's only so much that anyone outside Israel and the Arab world can do. What happens in the upcoming Israeli elections will be critical.
And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

Thanks for that. Seems I'm not the only one who sees a ray of hope from the efforts of reasonable people.

"But a few moments later, I paused and was shocked at my own reaction more than anything else. I realized how emotions can make you irrational, vulnerable and easily manipulated. I have never been pro-war and never will be. Interestingly, almost all the people in that hall shared my view. After all, we are all here in Kuwait supporting the moderates, not in Qatar with those I would describe as the radicals. Yet why were we so moved by these words? Quite simply, because we are all Arabs, and every true Arab with no exception, likes to hear these speeches. We all like to think of ourselves as strong and able to fight back aggressors, and defend our brothers and sisters all over the world."

"But then again, we have to be realistic. That’s the difference between some leaders and the rest of us."

catch-22 wrote:

thomasjay wrote:I certainly hope the new US administration can help make progress, but there's only so much that anyone outside Israel and the Arab world can do. What happens in the upcoming Israeli elections will be critical.
And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

Thanks for that. Seems I'm not the only one who sees a ray of hope from the efforts of reasonable people.

"But a few moments later, I paused and was shocked at my own reaction more than anything else. I realized how emotions can make you irrational, vulnerable and easily manipulated. I have never been pro-war and never will be. Interestingly, almost all the people in that hall shared my view. After all, we are all here in Kuwait supporting the moderates, not in Qatar with those I would describe as the radicals. Yet why were we so moved by these words? Quite simply, because we are all Arabs, and every true Arab with no exception, likes to hear these speeches. We all like to think of ourselves as strong and able to fight back aggressors, and defend our brothers and sisters all over the world."

"But then again, we have to be realistic. That’s the difference between some leaders and the rest of us."

The funny thing is, the radical ones in Qatar the author was mentioning includes Hamas.

Glad to see you're finally seeing the light.

Grim17 wrote:

catch-22 wrote:

thomasjay wrote:I certainly hope the new US administration can help make progress, but there's only so much that anyone outside Israel and the Arab world can do. What happens in the upcoming Israeli elections will be critical.
And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

Thanks for that. Seems I'm not the only one who sees a ray of hope from the efforts of reasonable people.

"But a few moments later, I paused and was shocked at my own reaction more than anything else. I realized how emotions can make you irrational, vulnerable and easily manipulated. I have never been pro-war and never will be. Interestingly, almost all the people in that hall shared my view. After all, we are all here in Kuwait supporting the moderates, not in Qatar with those I would describe as the radicals. Yet why were we so moved by these words? Quite simply, because we are all Arabs, and every true Arab with no exception, likes to hear these speeches. We all like to think of ourselves as strong and able to fight back aggressors, and defend our brothers and sisters all over the world."

"But then again, we have to be realistic. That’s the difference between some leaders and the rest of us."

The funny thing is, the radical ones in Qatar the author was mentioning includes Hamas.

Glad to see you're finally seeing the light.

Do you mean to say that because I choose not to take sides, here, and hope for a peaceful solution to the ME crisis, rather than stirring people into a lather of retribution and violence using bullshit propaganda tactics, that I have been keeping myself in the dark?

Guess again, Grim! Again you miss the point because you are blinded by your own light.

Not at all catch... I just though maybe you were finally coming to the realization that Hamas is a radical terrorist group that is at the heart of the problem in Palestine, since they were not part of the moderate group of Islamic governments that were searching for a solution.

Grim17 wrote:Not at all catch... I just though maybe you were finally coming to the realization that Hamas is a radical terrorist group that is at the heart of the problem in Palestine, since they were not part of the moderate group of Islamic governments that were searching for a solution.

I've never stated that Hamas was anything but a terrorist organization. It's a material fact. As to whether or not they are heart of the problem in Palestine is a matter of opinion.

Hamas is trying to find a solution, also. Unfortunately they see the destruction of (Zionist) Israel through violence as the only solution.

I've also stated thruout that if the Zionists were not in control of Israel (i.e. Palestine would have full control of their airspace, ports and land borders as in 1967), then Hamas would have no cause to continue to attack Israel.

They have also made this evident, as I have also pointed out to you previously.

Part of thomasjay's post referred to the upcoming Israel elections.

Perhaps you could spend a bit of time looking into the different scenarios and see what might happen if a more moderate government were to be elected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzipi_Livni

I've also stated thruout that if the Zionists were not in control of Israel (i.e. Palestine would have full control of their airspace, ports and land borders as in 1967)

Just as a point of historical fact, there was no Palestine in or before 1967. What is now called the West Bank was under Jordanian control and Gaza was Egyptian.

Israels borders 1948-1967

And a map of territorial control after the june '67 ceasefire

Israel after the 6 day war

To me the post-'67 map compared to current boundaries makes a strong argument against claims that Israel has a secret plan for Eretz Israel. Especially since they could have rolled right over Damascus, Amman and Cairo at the time.

Big Slick wrote:

Grim17 wrote:

thomasjay wrote:And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

People seem to forget the Israel’s patron, the United States, will never allow it to vanish, and neither will Europe or the UN.

In the 1973 war, Egypt and the Arabs did everything right. Perfectly synchronized attacks from Egypt and Syria were orchestrated; an oil embargo was secretly planned two months before the attack and announced a few days after the war started. When it finally seemed that the Arabs were winning the war, the United States intervened with major re-supplies and within a few days, the balance was back to Israel’s advantage. What the Arabs need to understand is that regrettably they cannot prevail over Israel by the use of force, at least not under the current circumstances. History has shown us that Arabs lost land in every war they fought against Israel, and only gained land with peace. There is no shame in that; victories can also be achieved through peace.

And to think there are some people out there who just can't seem to understand why so many militant arab groups hate the US...

While there's no doubt that's a cause of Arab resentment, I think in the area you bolded about US intervention, the author of the article is showing either some Arab pride or just lack of understanding of the military and geopolitical situation in 1967.
The Soviets were supplying Egypt and Syria with more and better equipment than the US was for Israel. Combined they held a 3-1 advantage over the Israelis in air power and armor in May 1967. The best fighter the Israelis had was the (French) Dassault-Mirage III, which should have been way outclassed by Egypt & Syrias Mig 21-F's. Most of Israels heavy armor consisted of cast-off WWII era Shermans vs. modern Soviet T-54 & 55 tanks. They lost not because of a disadvantage in OOB, but poor strategic planning of their leaders and tactical training of their troops.

thomasjay wrote:

I've also stated thruout that if the Zionists were not in control of Israel (i.e. Palestine would have full control of their airspace, ports and land borders as in 1967)

Just as a point of historical fact, there was no Palestine in or before 1967. What is now called the West Bank was under Jordanian control and Gaza was Egyptian.

Israels borders 1948-1967

And a map of territorial control after the june '67 ceasefire

Israel after the 6 day war

To me the post-'67 map compared to current boundaries makes a strong argument against claims that Israel has a secret plan for Eretz Israel. Especially since they could have rolled right over Damascus, Amman and Cairo at the time.

Perhaps I didn't use proper English. I didn't mean to infer that Palestine had control prior to '67. I meant that they would have full control of the borders as they (the borders) were prior to '67.

I wasn't aware that Eretz Israel would include Syria, Jordan and Egypt?

thomasjay wrote:

I've also stated thruout that if the Zionists were not in control of Israel (i.e. Palestine would have full control of their airspace, ports and land borders as in 1967)

Just as a point of historical fact, there was no Palestine in or before 1967. What is now called the West Bank was under Jordanian control and Gaza was Egyptian.

Israels borders 1948-1967

And a map of territorial control after the june '67 ceasefire

Israel after the 6 day war

To me the post-'67 map compared to current boundaries makes a strong argument against claims that Israel has a secret plan for Eretz Israel. Especially since they could have rolled right over Damascus, Amman and Cairo at the time.

The Roman Empire created Palestine. The name existed when Christ walked the earth.

That doesn't include the name British Mandate of Palestine which existed from 1920-1948.

thomasjay wrote:

Big Slick wrote:

Grim17 wrote:

thomasjay wrote:And I think this is an interesting editorial from the Egypt Daily News:

ARAB LEADERS:CAUGHT BETWEEN EMOTIONALISM AND REALISM

People seem to forget the Israel’s patron, the United States, will never allow it to vanish, and neither will Europe or the UN.

In the 1973 war, Egypt and the Arabs did everything right. Perfectly synchronized attacks from Egypt and Syria were orchestrated; an oil embargo was secretly planned two months before the attack and announced a few days after the war started. When it finally seemed that the Arabs were winning the war, the United States intervened with major re-supplies and within a few days, the balance was back to Israel’s advantage. What the Arabs need to understand is that regrettably they cannot prevail over Israel by the use of force, at least not under the current circumstances. History has shown us that Arabs lost land in every war they fought against Israel, and only gained land with peace. There is no shame in that; victories can also be achieved through peace.

And to think there are some people out there who just can't seem to understand why so many militant arab groups hate the US...

While there's no doubt that's a cause of Arab resentment, I think in the area you bolded about US intervention, the author of the article is showing either some Arab pride or just lack of understanding of the military and geopolitical situation in 1967.
The Soviets were supplying Egypt and Syria with more and better equipment than the US was for Israel. Combined they held a 3-1 advantage over the Israelis in air power and armor in May 1967. The best fighter the Israelis had was the (French) Dassault-Mirage III, which should have been way outclassed by Egypt & Syrias Mig 21-F's. Most of Israels heavy armor consisted of cast-off WWII era Shermans vs. modern Soviet T-54 & 55 tanks. They lost not because of a disadvantage in OOB, but poor strategic planning of their leaders and tactical training of their troops.

The element of surprise also assisted Israel in the 6 Day War. Egypt was caught with its pants down.