Infite Universe...

I propose that the universe is infinite, with no real and measurable beginning or end.

I think it just goes on and on.

I appreciate that there are other theories, but having heard most of them, this is the one that would most resonate with me.

Can you come up with a resolution to Olber's paradox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

Not sure.

It's a paradox, therefore, not really, I suppose.

Of course, I cannot show that my theory is correct.

But I feel it is as valid/invalid as any of the other most touted.

There are actually many universes, when you think about it.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Not sure.

It's a paradox, therefore, not really, I suppose.

Of course, I cannot show that my theory is correct.

But I feel it is as valid/invalid as any of the other most touted.

There are actually many universes, when you think about it.

There's actually quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the universe is not infinite.

Or at least, it can't be infinite and have existed for an infinite amount of time, because of gravity. Back when Newton first developed the theory of gravity he realised this, and had to suggest that occasionally the gods pushed the stars around to keep everything in order.

We know that the universe is expanding, and so we know how old it is because we know how long ago everything was in one place. As for the size, there's only a finite amount of space it could have taken up by now. If it started with everything in one place X years ago, and it's been expanding at a rate of Y, then the total volume it is taking up is X*Y. I don't think anyone is sure of exactly what X*Y is, it's usually (from memory) something like 100 times the size of the visible universe. Anyway, point being there is heaps of evidence that this is what has happened.

On the other hand, ours may not be the only universe. There may be others that are infinite, or for which the concept of space doesn't even exist. There may be an infinite number of other universes, or an infinity of infinities of other universes.

As for the paradox, it's resolved by the fact that the universe isn't infinite in time or space. You only really need to make one of those finite, so you could have a universe that is infinite in space but that has only existed a short time (which is inconsistent with all the evidence for the big bang), or one that has existed forever but in a finite space (though that's impossible due to gravity). So we end up with on that is both finite in space and finite in time.

Well, I shall stand by my assertion that the universe is eternal, in time and space, I guess we will have to disagree on that one, without getting too technical.

Short of being able to physically prove it, everything else would merely be a theory, with a number of assumptions built into it.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Well, I shall stand by my assertion that the universe is eternal, in time and space, I guess we will have to disagree on that one, without getting too technical.

Now I agree with this.

Short of being able to physically prove it, everything else would merely be a theory, with a number of assumptions built into it.

But not this. The idea that the universe is finite in time and space has a great deal of evidence in support of it. It has made predictions (such as the CMB) and later technological advances have proven these predictions correct. It is consistent with all the other laws of physics (more or less. Moreso than an infinite universe). An infinite universe, while perhaps possible, doesn't have this weight of scientific evidence backing it up.

But this evidence, it is not conclusive, is it?

At best, it can only be a strong theory.

If the universe includes space, with all the gas and so on, then yes, there must always have been something.

I am not suggesting that universe itself has not 'evolved'. Perhaps many times, it is almost like a living thing.

Planets and species have come and gone, and will do.

Universe itself is a constant, imo.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:But this evidence, it is not conclusive, is it?

At best, it can only be a strong theory.

No, that's the best it can be. But this is the same line of argument that the creationists go down regarding evolution.

Nothing is ever conclusive, only highly supported by the evidence. In this case, the idea of a finite universe is not as well supported as evolution is, but we can still be pretty darn sure it's not infinite. There's lots of evidence that disagrees with an infinite universe, and lots of evidence that agrees with a finite universe. Sure, they're both still only hypothesis, but that doesn't automatically give them equal likelihood of being true.

Kazza wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:But this evidence, it is not conclusive, is it?

At best, it can only be a strong theory.

No, that's the best it can be. But this is the same line of argument that the creationists go down regarding evolution.

Nothing is ever conclusive, only highly supported by the evidence. In this case, the idea of a finite universe is not as well supported as evolution is, but we can still be pretty darn sure it's not infinite. There's lots of evidence that disagrees with an infinite universe, and lots of evidence that agrees with a finite universe. Sure, they're both still only hypothesis, but that doesn't automatically give them equal likelihood of being true.

True. It doesn't. Nor does it mean that an infinite universe should be taken lightly, as a theory, by mainsteam science.

One thing is for sure.

In a century, people will look back, and look at some of what science today accepts as 'fact', only to have found it not to be.

Nothing wrong with that, of course, it's what sets science apart from religion.

Lets think about time, and the nature of time. This does relate to this thread I think. If time travel were possible than that would mean all that is possible exists at the same time. It would have to be this way for time travel to be possible. I don't think you could go back in time and change things and come back to the same exact time from which you left. Therefore each universe may be in a bubble per say. It only goes so far. Though there are an infinite amount of universes. Each in its own bubble of time. Just throwing it out there.

Is that far out there I don't know.

There are but three things that make up the universe as far as I know.

Space, Time, Matter.

OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Kazza wrote:Can you come up with a resolution to Olber's paradox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

That's easy! The universe is infinite...The number of stars in it is not!

If the universe is finite, what lies a footstep beyond it?

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

Thanks for the welcome, YWFT....

What is the Universe? Are we referring to the matter (tangible, dark, or otherwise quantified or theorized) that has been expanding for 14 billion years? Or the space that matter is expanding into?

No problem.

It means different things to different people, I guess.

Let us reach for our dictionaries.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/universe

–noun 1. the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm.
2. the whole world, esp. with reference to humanity: a truth known throughout the universe.
3. a world or sphere in which something exists or prevails: his private universe.
4. Also called universe of discourse. Logic. the aggregate of all the objects, attributes, and relations assumed or implied in a given discussion.
5. Also called universal set. Mathematics. the set of all elements under discussion for a given problem.
6. Statistics. the entire population under study.

No dictionaries allowed, in my Universe. The definitions are nothing more than a person's (or a group of persons) belief of the meaning of a word. It (the definition) is then accepted as a known invariable, if you accept it as such. This is a science, remember? According to your dictionary, the Universe is finite. If you settle for the definition, according to your dictionary, then your question has been answered.

I also said that it does mean different things to different people, as well as giving the dic definition.

"Universe" is only a word. True, it may mean something different to different people. However, to ask the question, "is the Universe infinite", must assume the person asking the question has a belief of the nature of the Universe. The definitions don't matter. What matters is what the word means to you. If you cannot define the Universe, then you cannot ask such a question (the topic). The answer(s) you receive will be dependent upon the understanding of the Universe, according to the person offering the answer. Unless your beliefs agree, you still don't have an answer.

DM007 wrote:"Universe" is only a word. True, it may mean something different to different people. However, to ask the question, "is the Universe infinite", must assume the person asking the question has a belief of the nature of the Universe. The definitions don't matter. What matters is what the word means to you. If you cannot define the Universe, then you cannot ask such a question (the topic). The answer(s) you receive will be dependent upon the understanding of the Universe, according to the person offering the answer. Unless your beliefs agree, you still don't have an answer.

Okay, well let us say that the universe is essentially space, a space in which many planets and stars exist.

A space in which earth exists.

Can that be truly finite?

What would be beyond it?

Does it merely stop, as a wall would?

Or is there some other outlandish theory to suggest what would be at the 'end' of it?

catch-22 wrote:

Kazza wrote:Can you come up with a resolution to Olber's paradox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

That's easy! The universe is infinite...The number of stars in it is not!

If the universe is finite, what lies a footstep beyond it?

A new universe. A universe that has different probabilities than the one you just left.

If that is your belief of the nature of the Universe, then it is finite. You have given it substance, and a limitation as to what is encompassed. To ask if "anything outside that" is finite, is another question, and not a question of the Universe. Anything outside that, would not be "the Universe", according to your understanding (belief) of the nature of the Universe.

See where we're going here? There is no "universal Universe" answer. There are no wrong answers, either. The answer may not agree with your belief (making it wrong, to you), but may agree with the belief of the person offering the answer.

No different than asking if someone thinks you are tall. Before an answer can be accepted by everyone who would ask, the word tall must be defined, and the definition must be accepted as an invariable.

howdy wrote:

catch-22 wrote:

Kazza wrote:Can you come up with a resolution to Olber's paradox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

That's easy! The universe is infinite...The number of stars in it is not!

If the universe is finite, what lies a footstep beyond it?

A new universe. A universe that has different probabilities than the one you just left.

A Universe within a Universe? Which is THE Universe, then? One would negate the other, according to your definition of "Universe".

DM007 wrote:If that is your belief of the nature of the Universe, then it is finite. You have given it substance, and a limitation as to what is encompassed. To ask if "anything outside that" is finite, is another question, and not a question of the Universe. Anything outside that, would not be "the Universe", according to your understanding (belief) of the nature of the Universe.

See where we're going here? There is no "universal Universe" answer. There are no wrong answers, either. The answer may not agree with your belief (making it wrong, to you), but may agree with the belief of the person offering the answer.

No different than asking if someone thinks you are tall. Before an answer can be accepted by everyone who would ask, the word tall must be defined, and the definition must be accepted as an invariable.

For the purpose of the debate, I did define it, a few posts up..

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

For the purpose of the debate, I did define it, a few posts up..

Where? When? You implied "essentially space", "a space in which many planets and stars exist", and "A space in which earth exists". Anything which can have anything else "within it", is quantifiable. Therefore, finite. Asking what lies beyond that, implies a specific quantifiable limitation you place upon that "space". If something is beyond that, then what is within is finite. If nothing is beyond what is finite, then what is beyond does not exist, and anything within that limit, is finite.

Let me put it this were.

If a rocket were built out of materials that could absorb any conditions, with an unlimited amount of fuel, and took off into deep space, imo, the journey would never come to and end, I do not think the rocket would reach a 'ceiling', or go around in a loop, taking it back to where it came from.

DM007 wrote:If that is your belief of the nature of the Universe, then it is finite. You have given it substance, and a limitation as to what is encompassed. To ask if "anything outside that" is finite, is another question, and not a question of the Universe. Anything outside that, would not be "the Universe", according to your understanding (belief) of the nature of the Universe.

See where we're going here? There is no "universal Universe" answer. There are no wrong answers, either. The answer may not agree with your belief (making it wrong, to you), but may agree with the belief of the person offering the answer.

No different than asking if someone thinks you are tall. Before an answer can be accepted by everyone who would ask, the word tall must be defined, and the definition must be accepted as an invariable.

Great post. I am not sure how to reply to this. Though it really makes me think.

Glad you are here.

One thing I am saying when it comes to the universe, is................

All that is possible exists at the same time. This would be the only way time travel could happen. Meaning that you could not go back in time and change something, and come back to the time you left. For example stopping the killing of JFK. You could never go back to the time you left. So what I am saying is each universe we live in, is in a bubble of time. So if you were to reach the edge of the universe, and go beyond. You would simply step into a new probability. So I am saying each probability is in a bubble of time. So the universe we know is limited in size and scope. Being in a bubble as we are.

Also I don't really know what the heck I am talking about. This is just my opinion. I could not back this up with fact what so ever.

Though it is a fun subject to talk about.

howdy wrote:One thing I am saying when it comes to the universe, is................

All that is possible exists at the same time. This would be the only way time travel could happen. Meaning that you could not go back in time and change something, and come back to the time you left. For example stopping the killing of JFK. You could never go back to the time you left. So what I am saying is each universe we live in, is in a bubble of time. So if you were to reach the edge of the universe, and go beyond. You would simply step into a new probability. So I am saying each probability is in a bubble of time. So the universe we know is limited in size and scope. Being in a bubble as we are.

Also I don't really know what the heck I am talking about. This is just my opinion. I could not back this up with fact what so ever.

Though it is a fun subject to talk about.

Actually.

Neither do I.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

howdy wrote:One thing I am saying when it comes to the universe, is................

All that is possible exists at the same time. This would be the only way time travel could happen. Meaning that you could not go back in time and change something, and come back to the time you left. For example stopping the killing of JFK. You could never go back to the time you left. So what I am saying is each universe we live in, is in a bubble of time. So if you were to reach the edge of the universe, and go beyond. You would simply step into a new probability. So I am saying each probability is in a bubble of time. So the universe we know is limited in size and scope. Being in a bubble as we are.

Also I don't really know what the heck I am talking about. This is just my opinion. I could not back this up with fact what so ever.

Though it is a fun subject to talk about.

Actually.

Neither do I.

hehe. Fun non the less.

F'king right.

Never let utter ignorance to a subject be a barrier to tell everyone what we 'reckon'.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:F'king right.

Never let utter ignorance to a subject be a barrier to tell everyone what we 'reckon'.

I cant even begin to tell you how much I agree with this post.

howdy wrote:

catch-22 wrote:

Kazza wrote:Can you come up with a resolution to Olber's paradox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

That's easy! The universe is infinite...The number of stars in it is not!

If the universe is finite, what lies a footstep beyond it?

A new universe. A universe that has different probabilities than the one you just left.

Did this "new" universe exist before I stepped into it or was it always there?

And if it was always there how could it have been separate to the one we are in and how many more are there?

I'm getting a mental picture of a bubble bath where the bubbles, together, represent all of the universes that exist and I'm standing there looking at them. Thing is....where am I in this picture if I am not in one of those universes?

howdy wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:F'king right.

Never let utter ignorance to a subject be a barrier to tell everyone what we 'reckon'.

I cant even begin to tell you how much I agree with this post.

I thought it was a given??

DM007 wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

Thanks for the welcome, YWFT....

What is the Universe? Are we referring to the matter (tangible, dark, or otherwise quantified or theorized) that has been expanding for 14 billion years? Or the space that matter is expanding into?

It refers to both. The matter isn't expanding into space. Space itself is expanding.

As for the definition of universe, technically I believe it refers to everything that exists, so it doesn't make sense to talk about other universes because there is only one by definition. In common use, though, I suppose it refers to everything that we could ever reach by travelling through regular, 3+1 dimensional spacetime.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:"Universe" is only a word. True, it may mean something different to different people. However, to ask the question, "is the Universe infinite", must assume the person asking the question has a belief of the nature of the Universe. The definitions don't matter. What matters is what the word means to you. If you cannot define the Universe, then you cannot ask such a question (the topic). The answer(s) you receive will be dependent upon the understanding of the Universe, according to the person offering the answer. Unless your beliefs agree, you still don't have an answer.

Okay, well let us say that the universe is essentially space, a space in which many planets and stars exist.

A space in which earth exists.

Can that be truly finite?

What would be beyond it?

Does it merely stop, as a wall would?

Or is there some other outlandish theory to suggest what would be at the 'end' of it?

It can be finite, and still have no boundaries.

Imagine a perfectly smooth sphere the size of the Earth. The surface of this sphere is a 2 dimensional universe, so if you look at it you can see lots of cartoon-character-like beings swimming around talking to each other etc.

They are bound to the surface of that 2 dimensional space, so for them the surface of the sphere is they're entire universe. Even though there is a finite amount of space in their universe, there are no edges.

Our universe may be the same. We may be living in a 3 dimensional universe that has a 4 dimensional shape. It's not something you can picture, but if this is true then you could fly a spaceship in some direction and if you head that way for long enough you'll eventually get back to where you started.

howdy wrote:One thing I am saying when it comes to the universe, is................

All that is possible exists at the same time. This would be the only way time travel could happen. Meaning that you could not go back in time and change something, and come back to the time you left. For example stopping the killing of JFK. You could never go back to the time you left. So what I am saying is each universe we live in, is in a bubble of time. So if you were to reach the edge of the universe, and go beyond. You would simply step into a new probability. So I am saying each probability is in a bubble of time. So the universe we know is limited in size and scope. Being in a bubble as we are.

Also I don't really know what the heck I am talking about. This is just my opinion. I could not back this up with fact what so ever.

Though it is a fun subject to talk about.

There is another possibility. The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Or perhaps time travel just isn't possible. Who knows.

Kazza wrote:

DM007 wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

Thanks for the welcome, YWFT....

What is the Universe? Are we referring to the matter (tangible, dark, or otherwise quantified or theorized) that has been expanding for 14 billion years? Or the space that matter is expanding into?

It refers to both. The matter isn't expanding into space. Space itself is expanding.

As for the definition of universe, technically I believe it refers to everything that exists, so it doesn't make sense to talk about other universes because there is only one by definition. In common use, though, I suppose it refers to everything that we could ever reach by travelling through regular, 3+1 dimensional spacetime.

Somewhat agreed. However, what is this space expanding into? Nothingness? Another dimension? Like a balloon as it's inflated. It must be displacing something. The "Universe" we don't know (yet), methinks. Or, is it exchanging outer-Universe for inner-Universe (like the balloon)? There was a time (not so long ago) when man believed accelerating beyond 60 MPH would cause death. Not long before that, we drowned and burned witches. It isn't as simple as we see it through our eyes (minds), now.

DM007 wrote:

Kazza wrote:

DM007 wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

Thanks for the welcome, YWFT....

What is the Universe? Are we referring to the matter (tangible, dark, or otherwise quantified or theorized) that has been expanding for 14 billion years? Or the space that matter is expanding into?

It refers to both. The matter isn't expanding into space. Space itself is expanding.

As for the definition of universe, technically I believe it refers to everything that exists, so it doesn't make sense to talk about other universes because there is only one by definition. In common use, though, I suppose it refers to everything that we could ever reach by travelling through regular, 3+1 dimensional spacetime.

Somewhat agreed. However, what is this space expanding into? Nothingness? Another dimension? Like a balloon as it's inflated. It must be displacing something. The "Universe" we don't know (yet), methinks. Or, is it exchanging outer-Universe for inner-Universe (like the balloon)? There was a time (not so long ago) when man believed accelerating beyond 60 MPH would cause death. Not long before that, we drowned and burned witches. It isn't as simple as we see it through our eyes (minds), now.

There are answers for many of these questions, but I sure as hell don't understand most of them.

Mathematics is much better at describing this than words are. I can't imagine how space itself could expand, but I can work out the mathematics for it, and based on that make predictions that agree with reality. Whether or not we are expanding into another dimension, however, may be something that will be answered when the LHC gets up and running.

Kazza wrote:

DM007 wrote:

Kazza wrote:

DM007 wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

DM007 wrote:OK. I'll play. ('bout time I jumped in...first post here)

Define: Universe

Good question.

Hey, think of it this way. Do know that even the cleanest of human beings have 'mites', right? Well, to them, your skin would be their universe, and they would not 'think' that there could be anything beyond that.

*Welcome on, btw*

Thanks for the welcome, YWFT....

What is the Universe? Are we referring to the matter (tangible, dark, or otherwise quantified or theorized) that has been expanding for 14 billion years? Or the space that matter is expanding into?

It refers to both. The matter isn't expanding into space. Space itself is expanding.

As for the definition of universe, technically I believe it refers to everything that exists, so it doesn't make sense to talk about other universes because there is only one by definition. In common use, though, I suppose it refers to everything that we could ever reach by travelling through regular, 3+1 dimensional spacetime.

Somewhat agreed. However, what is this space expanding into? Nothingness? Another dimension? Like a balloon as it's inflated. It must be displacing something. The "Universe" we don't know (yet), methinks. Or, is it exchanging outer-Universe for inner-Universe (like the balloon)? There was a time (not so long ago) when man believed accelerating beyond 60 MPH would cause death. Not long before that, we drowned and burned witches. It isn't as simple as we see it through our eyes (minds), now.

There are answers for many of these questions, but I sure as hell don't understand most of them.

Mathematics is much better at describing this than words are. I can't imagine how space itself could expand, but I can work out the mathematics for it, and based on that make predictions that agree with reality. Whether or not we are expanding into another dimension, however, may be something that will be answered when the LHC gets up and running.

Mathematics is only a very small part of the answer. Mathematically, the Universe, as generally accepted, is only ~14B years old. If nothing can accelerate beyond the speed of light, why is the vastness ~93B LY? Sure, space/time can be "folded" (theoretically), but surely not the majority of the mass, over such a great distance, and so uniformly???? Or can it?