The Vanishing...

One of the so called great unsolved mysteries is what led to the extinction of an entire species, such as the Dinosaurs.

It would surely have to take something quite incredible to wipe out not just one or two, but an entire speices, of all shapes, sizes, etc.

Of course, as with every unknown, there has been scientific explaination.

These differ and tend to amount to conjecture.

There is a suggestion of some climatic shift.

There is an idea that they literally over ate, not leaving sufficient for their daily needs

There are ideas about a virus that may have spread, all sorts, let google be your friend.

But what I am looking for is to find the most plausible scientific theory.

Anyone?

Most experts agree that it was due to a meteor impact. The impact point was somewhere around the gulf of mexico I think.

Anyway, we know that the dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago, and we also know that a massive metor hit the Earth about 65 million years ago.

Even other theories usually take the meteor as a given. So perhaps the meteor hit, and then that caused some large scale volcanism. Perhaps the meteor hit, and that caused the climate to change.


As for overeating, I can't imagine that was the case. What's amazing about the dinosaur extinction isn't just that the dinosaurs went extinct, but that a huge percentage of all species went extinct simultaneously. It's happened 5 times in the past, and during the worst one 97% of all species became extinct. That's not just to say that 97% of all living individuals died, but 97% of species became extinct.

Anyway, overeating wouldn't affect all the species like that. Perhaps one or two that were localized to a small island might accomplish it, but nothing like this.

I have a theory about how a single event could cause the extintion of most species on the planet and it's somewhere between what both of your are saying.

Steve, you mentioned a climactic shift and Kazza, you stated that the event (or similar) has occured 5 times before.

My theory is not based on fact but rather an extension (for want of a better word) of what is going on on Earth today.

I should ask at this point that if the event has occured 5 times before, is there evidence to suggest that each of the events could be attributable to meteor or asteroid impact and if not how many could be and what other theories could be put forward to explain the phenomenon?

My theory:

The Sun's mass creates the gravitational forces applied to the Earth to keep it within an orbit around the Sun and makes for an ideal environment for life (as we know it) to exist.

At some point the Suns' gravitational pull either increases or decreases to such an extent as to have a measurable effect on the distance of the planet (and as a consequence, all of the planets) from the Sun, either pulling the planets closer to the Sun or repelling them. More or less like a pulse as the Sun increases and decreases it's intensity.

The effect is gradual and either causes an increase or decrease in average temperatures. Maybe it just causes an increase in the extremes in temperatures, I'm not sure on this.

At some point, the pulse of the Sun either increases or decreases it's effect on the Solar System depending on the cycle it is in.

This is where it gets difficult to explain!

If the increasing gravitational pulsation is sustained over many millions of years (i.e. the planets are drawn towards the Sun), gradually increasing atmospheric temperatures, there comes a point where the Sun reaches an exhaustion point and begins to contract rapidly. (exhales)

The result is a massive and devastating drop in temperatures creating an environment incapable of the sustaining life as it existed at the time and decimating all but the hardiest and cold tolerant species. (those nearest the poles and perhaps and the majority of cold-blooded animals capable of hibernation for very long periods of time)

The same would apply after a sustained period of decreased gravitational pull where the planets have been repelled by the Sun's reduction in activity and as the activity increases, so does the planets' ability to support new forms of life more suited to the environment and the cycle starts all over again.

I hope I made it clear and that I don't come across as a total idiot. I'ts just my theory. Not based on any facts. It just seems to make sense to me!

Kazza wrote:Most experts agree that it was due to a meteor impact. The impact point was somewhere around the gulf of mexico I think.

Anyway, we know that the dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago, and we also know that a massive metor hit the Earth about 65 million years ago.

Even other theories usually take the meteor as a given. So perhaps the meteor hit, and then that caused some large scale volcanism. Perhaps the meteor hit, and that caused the climate to change..

Could well be.

Strange that it would eliminate all species of dinosaur, yet other creatures must have survived it?

I wonder what HP's perspective on this might be?

I have known of religous people go as far as to deny the existance of dinosaurs, primarily because they lived so long ago that their very existance contradicts the fundamentalist idea about the age of the Earth, and all living creatues. I have even heard some of the more 'colourful' theories, by theists, that dinosaur bones discovered are merely 'plants', presumably by evil (sic) scientists, to guide us away from the path of god.

I wouldn't have thought she would take that stance.

I have heard other theists accept the existance of dinossaurs, accept them as another of god's creations, yet admit that 'god made a mistake with their creation', and therefore, he effectively eliminated them.

HP?

Thoughts...

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

Kazza wrote:Most experts agree that it was due to a meteor impact. The impact point was somewhere around the gulf of mexico I think.

Anyway, we know that the dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago, and we also know that a massive metor hit the Earth about 65 million years ago.

Even other theories usually take the meteor as a given. So perhaps the meteor hit, and then that caused some large scale volcanism. Perhaps the meteor hit, and that caused the climate to change..

Could well be.

Strange that it would eliminate all species of dinosaur, yet other creatures must have survived it?

I wonder what HP's perspective on this might be?

I have known of religous people go as far as to deny the existance of dinosaurs, primarily because they lived so long ago that their very existance contradicts the fundamentalist idea about the age of the Earth, and all living creatues. I have even heard some of the more 'colourful' theories, by theists, that dinosaur bones discovered are merely 'plants', presumably by evil (sic) scientists, to guide us away from the path of god.

I wouldn't have thought she would take that stance.

I have heard other theists accept the existance of dinossaurs, accept them as another of god's creations, yet admit that 'god made a mistake with their creation', and therefore, he effectively eliminated them.

HP?

Thoughts...

Excellent post from you and the Kman.

First, I have not heard Christians say that God made a mistake. To believe that, they are not Christians.

Here is what I believe and I'll make it simple. Evolution happened and happens. God doesn't make mistakes. It's His plan of which I have not been apprised.

I don't get how people can deny the existence of dinos.

Of what animal, then, are those huge skeletons at museums?

Well, precisely.

Have a sniff around the net, you will find many that do believe those bones are actually faked!

Seriously.

One other thing, I know I've mentioned this to you before, but just to put it out there.

God made the world in 6 days and on the 7th, He rested.

What was considered a day? A unit of time. Was a day 24 hours? Or thousands/millions of years? I don't know. My point is the world is as old as it is. And God was/is constant. So, If the world is (insert number) years old, that does not mean that it was not created by God.

I guess I'm one of those who believes God and Science are symbiotic.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Well, precisely.

Have a sniff around the net, you will find many that do believe those bones are actually faked!

Seriously.

That's embarrassing to me.

There are even those who maintain that the world is still flat!

I kid you not.

No sir, really?! Can they read in institutions?

Hasn't there been several mass extinctions? I saw that on discovery (I think) the other night. There were 4 or 5 such disappearances of species even before the great Dino mystery.

CarolinaHound wrote:Hasn't there been several mass extinctions? I saw that on discovery (I think) the other night. There were 4 or 5 such disappearances of species even before the great Dino mystery.

OMG, my hubby and the kids watch Discovery and The History Channel non-stop!

Most seem to believe that mankind will self destroy through war.

Perhaps.

However, it is just as likely, if not more, that a huge climate change, perhaps brought about by ourselves, will actually be the reason for our own extinction.

Then something else will be top of the food chain.

HotParadox wrote:

CarolinaHound wrote:Hasn't there been several mass extinctions? I saw that on discovery (I think) the other night. There were 4 or 5 such disappearances of species even before the great Dino mystery.

OMG, my hubby and the kids watch Discovery and The History Channel non-stop!

Good stuff on those channels. I like wild west tech on history, and their stuff on the civil war.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Most seem to believe that mankind will self destroy through war.

Perhaps.

However, it is just as likely, if not more, that a huge climate change, perhaps brought about by ourselves, will actually be the reason for our own extinction.

Then something else will be top of the food chain.

I tend to think we'll be wiped out by a super strain of virus. We keep making better and stronger vaccines, and the viruses just get better and stronger. Eventually they'll be immune to everything we throw at them.

If that were true, those living in an island nation would perhaps be safer.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:If that were true, those living in an island nation would perhaps be safer.

Only if they have no tourism.

CarolinaHound wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:If that were true, those living in an island nation would perhaps be safer.

Only if they have no tourism.

Redundant.

In such circs, tourism would be banned.

Simple as.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:

CarolinaHound wrote:

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:If that were true, those living in an island nation would perhaps be safer.

Only if they have no tourism.

Redundant.

In such circs, tourism would be banned.

Simple as.

By the time they figured out there was a virus going around, and they banned tourist, it's likely to of already flown in.

Depends.

It may start in one nation or two.

Or an entire continent.

In which case, you would ban entry for anyone from those places, unless they had been fully screened.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Depends.

It may start in one nation or two.

Or an entire continent.

In which case, you would ban entry for anyone from those places, unless they had been fully screened.

It doesn't take but one person who is infected. before he really get sick he is just a carrier, he takes a flight. He has contact with dozens of people at that air port who all take different flights. They are now carriers. One happens to go to your island. Poof, too late.

Even with one, if he were identified soon enough, he and those affected could soon be isolated, for the common good.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:Even with one, if he were identified soon enough, he and those affected could soon be isolated, for the common good.

By the time he gets sick and is id'ed. He's already infected everyone he's come in contact with.

catch-22 wrote:I have a theory about how a single event could cause the extintion of most species on the planet and it's somewhere between what both of your are saying.

Steve, you mentioned a climactic shift and Kazza, you stated that the event (or similar) has occured 5 times before.

My theory is not based on fact but rather an extension (for want of a better word) of what is going on on Earth today.

I should ask at this point that if the event has occured 5 times before, is there evidence to suggest that each of the events could be attributable to meteor or asteroid impact and if not how many could be and what other theories could be put forward to explain the phenomenon?

My theory:

The Sun's mass creates the gravitational forces applied to the Earth to keep it within an orbit around the Sun and makes for an ideal environment for life (as we know it) to exist.

At some point the Suns' gravitational pull either increases or decreases to such an extent as to have a measurable effect on the distance of the planet (and as a consequence, all of the planets) from the Sun, either pulling the planets closer to the Sun or repelling them. More or less like a pulse as the Sun increases and decreases it's intensity.

The effect is gradual and either causes an increase or decrease in average temperatures. Maybe it just causes an increase in the extremes in temperatures, I'm not sure on this.

At some point, the pulse of the Sun either increases or decreases it's effect on the Solar System depending on the cycle it is in.

This is where it gets difficult to explain!

If the increasing gravitational pulsation is sustained over many millions of years (i.e. the planets are drawn towards the Sun), gradually increasing atmospheric temperatures, there comes a point where the Sun reaches an exhaustion point and begins to contract rapidly. (exhales)

The result is a massive and devastating drop in temperatures creating an environment incapable of the sustaining life as it existed at the time and decimating all but the hardiest and cold tolerant species. (those nearest the poles and perhaps and the majority of cold-blooded animals capable of hibernation for very long periods of time)

The same would apply after a sustained period of decreased gravitational pull where the planets have been repelled by the Sun's reduction in activity and as the activity increases, so does the planets' ability to support new forms of life more suited to the environment and the cycle starts all over again.

I hope I made it clear and that I don't come across as a total idiot. I'ts just my theory. Not based on any facts. It just seems to make sense to me!

The gravitational theory would fly in the face of everything we know about physics, so I don't think that's very likely. The basic idea of planets getting hotter and colder, however, may be true. Rather than the sun's gravity changing, maybe the energy output changed and caused the planets to get extremely hot or extremely cold. I wonder whether or not this would have left evidence that we can test. Maybe the ice cores? I'm not sure how far they go back.

The cyclical aspect of your idea is pretty common as well. I mentioned that it has happened 5 times, but what is also interesting is that those 5 times are roughly evenly spaced, about 60 million years between each. It could just be a coincidence, but it may also be because every 60 million years the Earth passes through an area of the galaxy with lots of meteors, or something like that.

I should ask at this point that if the event has occured 5 times before, is there evidence to suggest that each of the events could be attributable to meteor or asteroid impact and if not how many could be and what other theories could be put forward to explain the phenomenon?

Meteor impacts can be seen in the geological record, especially big ones. They kick up a whole lot of debris, and that settles in a fine layer of a huge area. You can see that layer, and you can even work out roughly where the meteor hit, and look for more evidence of it there.

There are multiple other explanations, though. The extinction about 300 million years ago, in which 97% of the species were exterminated (I think it was the 300myo one), is a big mystery. There's no evidence of a meteor impact at that time. No evidence of anything. Some people have suggested it was a biological phenomenon, like a really bad virus that jumped across most species. It could also have been a nearby star that went supernova, and covered the Earth in severe radiation. I'm pretty sure there's still no definite answer on that one.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:
Could well be.

Strange that it would eliminate all species of dinosaur, yet other creatures must have survived it?

Actually, which animals survived and which didn't is good evidence of it being a meteor impact. Those that survived were mostly species living in the oceans, or small, nocturnal, burrowing species. It's actually from those small, burrowing, rat-like mammals that we evolved.

Kazza wrote:
The gravitational theory would fly in the face of everything we know about physics, so I don't think that's very likely. The basic idea of planets getting hotter and colder, however, may be true. Rather than the sun's gravity changing, maybe the energy output changed and caused the planets to get extremely hot or extremely cold. I wonder whether or not this would have left evidence that we can test. Maybe the ice cores? I'm not sure how far they go back.

The cyclical aspect of your idea is pretty common as well. I mentioned that it has happened 5 times, but what is also interesting is that those 5 times are roughly evenly spaced, about 60 million years between each. It could just be a coincidence, but it may also be because every 60 million years the Earth passes through an area of the galaxy with lots of meteors, or something like that.

I should ask at this point that if the event has occured 5 times before, is there evidence to suggest that each of the events could be attributable to meteor or asteroid impact and if not how many could be and what other theories could be put forward to explain the phenomenon?

Meteor impacts can be seen in the geological record, especially big ones. They kick up a whole lot of debris, and that settles in a fine layer of a huge area. You can see that layer, and you can even work out roughly where the meteor hit, and look for more evidence of it there.

There are multiple other explanations, though. The extinction about 300 million years ago, in which 97% of the species were exterminated (I think it was the 300myo one), is a big mystery. There's no evidence of a meteor impact at that time. No evidence of anything. Some people have suggested it was a biological phenomenon, like a really bad virus that jumped across most species. It could also have been a nearby star that went supernova, and covered the Earth in severe radiation. I'm pretty sure there's still no definite answer on that one.

Thanks for the in-depth response, Kazza. I really appreciate it. Your comment about ice sore samples led me (Don't ask how) to these sites which attempt to explain the causes of changes in the Earth's orbit and how they relate to changes in our climate. (although I'm not clear on what causes the changes in the orbit....yet)

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/orbit_climate_010212.html

This one is also interesting!

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es1506/es1506page01.cfm?chapter_no=visualization

Species related... The next time you go to swat that fly that is bugging you, remember this. If all the insects in the world were wiped out today, mankind would soon follow their extinction. We NEED them more than most realise.

The Ghost Of Yeah Well Fi wrote:There are even those who maintain that the world is still flat!

I kid you not.

I have seen that. I guess still believe the so called flat earth is supported on the backs of many turtles. LOL

Never underestimate how gullible some are.

Tell you what, here is something to do.

Dream up some theory, that would be seen as a bit out there.

Offer no evidence, other than your word.

Put it out on the net.

Do some E Books.

Within a few yeard, I bet you would have some Ericites....

catch-22 wrote:

Kazza wrote:
The gravitational theory would fly in the face of everything we know about physics, so I don't think that's very likely. The basic idea of planets getting hotter and colder, however, may be true. Rather than the sun's gravity changing, maybe the energy output changed and caused the planets to get extremely hot or extremely cold. I wonder whether or not this would have left evidence that we can test. Maybe the ice cores? I'm not sure how far they go back.

The cyclical aspect of your idea is pretty common as well. I mentioned that it has happened 5 times, but what is also interesting is that those 5 times are roughly evenly spaced, about 60 million years between each. It could just be a coincidence, but it may also be because every 60 million years the Earth passes through an area of the galaxy with lots of meteors, or something like that.

I should ask at this point that if the event has occured 5 times before, is there evidence to suggest that each of the events could be attributable to meteor or asteroid impact and if not how many could be and what other theories could be put forward to explain the phenomenon?

Meteor impacts can be seen in the geological record, especially big ones. They kick up a whole lot of debris, and that settles in a fine layer of a huge area. You can see that layer, and you can even work out roughly where the meteor hit, and look for more evidence of it there.

There are multiple other explanations, though. The extinction about 300 million years ago, in which 97% of the species were exterminated (I think it was the 300myo one), is a big mystery. There's no evidence of a meteor impact at that time. No evidence of anything. Some people have suggested it was a biological phenomenon, like a really bad virus that jumped across most species. It could also have been a nearby star that went supernova, and covered the Earth in severe radiation. I'm pretty sure there's still no definite answer on that one.

Thanks for the in-depth response, Kazza. I really appreciate it. Your comment about ice sore samples led me (Don't ask how) to these sites which attempt to explain the causes of changes in the Earth's orbit and how they relate to changes in our climate. (although I'm not clear on what causes the changes in the orbit....yet)

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/orbit_climate_010212.html

This one is also interesting!

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es1506/es1506page01.cfm?chapter_no=visualization

Interesting. I'm not sure what causes the change in Earth's orbit. Could be an effect of general relativity. Could have something to do with the motion of the other planets. It sounds odd to me, so I'm guessing it's a GR effect.