Pandemic viruses that mix genetic material from humans and animals

New flu strain, a combination of pig, bird and human viruses that humans may have no natural immunity to.

The new flu has now spread to 17 states in Mexico, 7 states in the U.S., Nova Scotia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Canada, parts of Europe (Britain, France, Spain) and Israel.

The first death was in southern Oaxaca state April 13, but Mexico didn't send the first of 14 mucus samples to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention until April 18, around the same time it dispatched health teams to hospitals looking for patients with severe flu or pnuemonia-like symptoms.

Those teams noticed something strange: The flu was killing people aged 20 to 40. Flu victims are usually either infants or the elderly. The Spanish flu pandemic, which killed at least 40 million people worldwide in 1918-19, also first struck otherwise healthy young adults.

The World Health Organization on Saturday asked all countries to step up reporting and surveillance of the disease, as airports around the world were screening all travellers from Mexico for flu symptoms.

Meanwhile in Mexico, the mayor of Mexico City said today that five new flu deaths occurred overnight, with two confirmed as the swine flu, and 73 more people were sickened by the virus brining the total to over 1,300 reported cases. On Saturday, the total of deaths believed to have stemmed from swine flu stood at 88.

Federal health officials say 40 cases of swine flu have been reported in seven states so far. Officials expect more cases and more severe illness among Americans. The acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Richard Besser, speaking today at a White House news conference, says that health authorities are looking for more cases and finding out more about the strain of swine flu reported in Mexico and the U.S.

Besser says things are moving fast and that authorities expect the virus to spread. The new flu strain, a mixture of swine, bird and human viruses, poses the biggest risk of a large-scale pandemic since avian flu surfaced in 1997.

US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said she would declare a public health emergency, release stockpiles of Tamiflu drugs and prepare for school closures.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) declared the flu a "public health event of international concern."
International experts will convene on Tuesday to advise the WHO whether to raise the pandemic alert level, which currently stands at three on a level of one to six.

Will it spread to where I live?

That depends on two things: whether the virus is transported to where you live, and how efficiently it spreads between people. So many people travel globally now that, as long as this virus keeps infecting people, it is unlikely not to get to where you live. Some countries are already using infrared cameras to spot people with fevers on flights from affected areas. But that won't stop it entirely, since a week can pass before an infected person shows symptoms, and the virus can spread before symptoms start.

The question is how efficiently it spreads once it lands. From the number of cases in Mexico and the fact that those infected in the US had not contacted pigs or each other, we know that it can spread from human to human, and has done so for weeks at least. Investigators are testing whether people who contacted known cases were also infected to try to assess how easily it spreads.

There are no stocks of vaccine to THIS new flu. The US has already created a "seed strain" from it, a virus that can be grown to make vaccines. Because of fears that H5N1 bird flu would go pandemic, vaccine companies and regulators, especially in Europe, have developed procedures over the past few years for rapidly approving and manufacturing pandemic vaccines in factories that normally make regular human flu vaccines.

The question now is whether and when they will switch production to a pandemic vaccine. If they do, the question will be how many doses they can produce, and how fast. Researchers are trying to find ways to stretch vaccine stocks, but there is no commonly agreed approach yet.

They won't be able to make much vaccine for several months. But if there are several waves, each several months apart, as there have been in past pandemics, they might have time to make stocks of the vaccine before the next wave – if there is one.

Why are we worried this virus could go pandemic?

Because it is new. Flu constantly evolves, mostly with small changes to its surface proteins. There are usually enough differences between this year's flu and whatever you had last time to allow the new virus to evade your immune defenses and cause an infection, but its similarities to your last case mean you still have partial immunity to it.

But flu surface proteins come in 16 different families, and viruses interbreed and swap genes. Occasionally a new flu virus that has picked up completely new surface proteins from pig or bird flu viruses circulates in people. Since no humans have been exposed to it before, no one has any immunity. Those viruses cause pandemics.

Swine flu shares the same symptoms as the human flu, including fever, headache and a runny nose.

"It appears that maybe the swine flu has merged with human influenza and has formed a new strain which explains its spread," Dr McAnulty, NSW Health communicable diseases director concludes.

I urge every and anyone who gets flu-like symtoms to seek immediate medical attention. If you get flu shots every year as my wife and I do, that will have no effect on this flu. This is new serious strain genetically and is killing otherwise healthy people of all ages. This is not your run of the mill flu. Do not wait until the symtoms are very serious to see a doctor. The reason for this is two fold. First you will need to be tested and documented to see if your flu is the new strain. The CDC needs this information as does the Worl;d Health Organization. Secondly, the sooner you are put on Tami-flu and statin drugs, the better chance you have of a cure. There is no vaccine for this flu but when patients are seen early on, and they do not already have weakened immune systems, Tamiflu is working. This is nothing to fool with or shrug off. This flu could easily become panademic and has in a very short time, already spread across the globe with more countries reporting every day.

This is no time also to be traveling to anywhere in Mexico or having contact with recent travellers from Mexico or eating any pork products from Mexico or other Latin countries. Wash your hands frequently, keep your immune system as high as you can (although there is no immunity to this flu but it will help you somewhat if you do become ill-rather than already having a lowered immune system, in how quickly you become ill and how fast your symptoms become severe) and try to avoid people who are ill. But PLEASE seek medical attention asap if you deveop any flu-like symptoms. The people who have died, and again at ALL age levels, waited until they were very ill after several days to seek treatment. You will need drugs that are not available "over the counter" to fight this virus.

I got the avian flu in the early 90's while flying the Pacific route and wound up in the hospital for a week and have never been so ill in my life. None of this is to frighten anyone, believe me, but we should all just be vigilant and aware, as this new strain is a genetic cross over and very serious. Immunologists and Virologists have been predicting and fearing this type of possible genetic cross over strain for years now and it's finally here.

The age of the victims thus far has heightened fears that this virus could be the beginning of a new pandemic. Most of the victims of the 1918 Spanish flu, which wiped out about 50 million people worldwide were men and women in their prime.

Saturday night medical experts said that while this particular swine flu starts off like a normal flu, the victims temperatures soon shot up to 102F, with muscle aches so painful they were almost paralyzing. It is also characterized by extremely painful headaches and eventually diarrhea and vomiting.

Put It Out There Baby wrote:New flu strain, a combination of pig, bird and human viruses that humans may have no natural immunity to.

The new flu has now spread to 17 states in Mexico, 9 states in the U.S., Nova Scotia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Canada, parts of Europe (Britain, France, Spain) and Israel.

The first death was in southern Oaxaca state April 13, but Mexico didn't send the first of 14 mucus samples to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention until April 18, around the same time it dispatched health teams to hospitals looking for patients with severe flu or pnuemonia-like symptoms.

Those teams noticed something strange: The flu was killing people aged 20 to 40. Flu victims are usually either infants or the elderly. The Spanish flu pandemic, which killed at least 40 million people worldwide in 1918-19, also first struck otherwise healthy young adults.

The World Health Organization on Saturday asked all countries to step up reporting and surveillance of the disease, as airports around the world were screening all travellers from Mexico for flu symptoms.

Meanwhile in Mexico, the mayor of Mexico City said today that five new flu deaths occurred overnight, with two confirmed as the swine flu, and 73 more people were sickened by the virus brining the total to over 1,300 reported cases. On Saturday, the total of deaths believed to have stemmed from swine flu stood at 88.

Federal health officials say 40 cases of swine flu have been reported in seven states so far. Officials expect more cases and more severe illness among Americans. The acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Richard Besser, speaking today at a White House news conference, says that health authorities are looking for more cases and finding out more about the strain of swine flu reported in Mexico and the U.S.

Besser says things are moving fast and that authorities expect the virus to spread. The new flu strain, a mixture of swine, bird and human viruses, poses the biggest risk of a large-scale pandemic since avian flu surfaced in 1997.

US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said she would declare a public health emergency, release stockpiles of Tamiflu drugs and prepare for school closures.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) declared the flu a "public health event of international concern."
International experts will convene on Tuesday to advise the WHO whether to raise the pandemic alert level, which currently stands at three on a level of one to six.

Will it spread to where I live?

That depends on two things: whether the virus is transported to where you live, and how efficiently it spreads between people. So many people travel globally now that, as long as this virus keeps infecting people, it is unlikely not to get to where you live. Some countries are already using infrared cameras to spot people with fevers on flights from affected areas. But that won't stop it entirely, since a week can pass before an infected person shows symptoms, and the virus can spread before symptoms start.

The question is how efficiently it spreads once it lands. From the number of cases in Mexico and the fact that those infected in the US had not contacted pigs or each other, we know that it can spread from human to human, and has done so for weeks at least. Investigators are testing whether people who contacted known cases were also infected to try to assess how easily it spreads.

There are no stocks of vaccine to THIS new flu. The US has already created a "seed strain" from it, a virus that can be grown to make vaccines. Because of fears that H5N1 bird flu would go pandemic, vaccine companies and regulators, especially in Europe, have developed procedures over the past few years for rapidly approving and manufacturing pandemic vaccines in factories that normally make regular human flu vaccines.

The question now is whether and when they will switch production to a pandemic vaccine. If they do, the question will be how many doses they can produce, and how fast. Researchers are trying to find ways to stretch vaccine stocks, but there is no commonly agreed approach yet.

They won't be able to make much vaccine for several months. But if there are several waves, each several months apart, as there have been in past pandemics, they might have time to make stocks of the vaccine before the next wave – if there is one.

Why are we worried this virus could go pandemic?

Because it is new. Flu constantly evolves, mostly with small changes to its surface proteins. There are usually enough differences between this year's flu and whatever you had last time to allow the new virus to evade your immune defenses and cause an infection, but its similarities to your last case mean you still have partial immunity to it.

But flu surface proteins come in 16 different families, and viruses interbreed and swap genes. Occasionally a new flu virus that has picked up completely new surface proteins from pig or bird flu viruses circulates in people. Since no humans have been exposed to it before, no one has any immunity. Those viruses cause pandemics.

Swine flu shares the same symptoms as the human flu, including fever, headache and a runny nose.

"It appears that maybe the swine flu has merged with human influenza and has formed a new strain which explains its spread," Dr McAnulty, NSW Health communicable diseases director concludes.

I urge every and anyone who gets flu-like symtoms to seek immediate medical attention. If you get flu shots every year as my wife and I do, that will have no effect on this flu. This is new serious strain genetically and is killing otherwise healthy people of all ages. This is not your run of the mill flu. Do not wait until the symtoms are very serious to see a doctor. The reason for this is two fold. First you will need to be tested and documented to see if your flu is the new strain. The CDC needs this information as does the Worl;d Health Organization. Secondly, the sooner you are put on Tami-flu and statin drugs, the better chance you have of a cure. There is no vaccine for this flu but when patients are seen early on, and they do not already have weakened immune systems, Tamiflu is working. This is nothing to fool with or shrug off. This flu could easily become panademic and has in a very short time, already spread across the globe with more countries reporting every day.

This is no time also to be traveling to anywhere in Mexico or having contact with recent travellers from Mexico or eating any pork products from Mexico or other Latin countries. Wash your hands frequently, keep your immune system as high as you can (although there is no immunity to this flu but it will help you somewhat if you do become ill-rather than already having a lowered immune system, in how quickly you become ill and how fast your symptoms become severe) and try to avoid people who are ill. But PLEASE seek medical attention asap if you deveop any flu-like symptoms. The people who have died, and again at ALL age levels, waited until they were very ill after several days to seek treatment. You will need drugs that are not available "over the counter" to fight this virus.

I got the avian flu in the early 90's while flying the Pacific route and wound up in the hospital for a week and have never been so ill in my life. None of this is to frighten anyone, believe me, but we should all just be vigilant and aware, as this new strain is a genetic cross over and very serious. Immunologists and Virologists have been predicting and fearing this type of possible genetic cross over strain for years now and it's finally here.

The age of the victims thus far has heightened fears that this virus could be the beginning of a new pandemic. Most of the victims of the 1918 Spanish flu, which wiped out about 50 million people worldwide were men and women in their prime.

Saturday night medical experts said that while this particular swine flu starts off like a normal flu, the victims temperatures soon shot up to 102F, with muscle aches so painful they were almost paralyzing. It is also characterized by extremely painful headaches and eventually diarrhea and vomiting.

And to thik that we cannot even cure a tiny little old cold yet. And then along comes this big sucker. Sure seems like nature is hell bent on getting rid of us for what we have done to the planet doesn't it?

Well, there have been viruses on the planet long before we even showed up. Plants and animals have always had them. Many stay in animals for example, but in the last few centuries, some now cross over to infect humans. (such as Monkey B virus, various flu viruses, Ebola and many, many others) They are mostly passive in their hosts but not so much when they cross over or jump to human beings. The virus can also change when it hits the "human" system. (SIV Simian Immunodeficiency Virus in monkeys vs. Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome in humans) The tricky thing is that these virus mutate so quickly, that if and when a vaccine is developed for them (the flu shot for instance, that you get every year) there are already new strains and viruses out there infecting people that your shot will not affect. Plus there are several forms of each type of flu to boot. These virus migrate from one country to the next which can take a while and new variations/combos show up all the time.

The issue with this virus however, is that it is the first strain of a combo bird/swine/human virus flu spread to humans. And the people who have died-the majority of them are in the 20 year to 40 year age range. That is also very uncommon for most flu viruses as they almost always kill infants and the elderly. There are fears that this strain may be worse than SARS. It is just too early and new to tell yet. It is going to take around the clock work by the CDC and WHO before we really know.

Remember, 30,000 to 40,000 people in the US alone, die every year from some form of flu. Worlwide, that figure is upwards of 450,00 to 500,000.

Put It Out There Baby wrote:Well, there have been viruses on the planet long before we even showed up. Plants and animals have always had them. Some stay in animals but in the last few centuries, some now cross over to infect humans. (such as Monkey B virus, various flu viruses, Ebola and many, many others) They are mostly passive in their hosts but no so much when they cross over or jump to human beings. The tricky thing is that these virus mutate so quickly, that when a vaccine is developed for them (the flu shot you get every year) there are already new strains and viruses out there infecting people that your shot will not affect. Plus there are several forms of each type of flu to boot. These virus migrate from one country to the next which can take a whike and new variations/combos show up all the time.

The issue with this virus however is that it is the first strain of a combo bird/swine to human flu. And the people who have died-the majority of them are in the 20 year to 40 year age range. That is also very uncommon for most flu viruses as they almost always kill infants and the elderly. There are fears that this strain may be worse than SARS. It is just too early and new to tell yet. It is going to take around the clock work by the CDC and WHO before we really know.

Remember, 30,000 to 40,000 people in the US alone, die every year from some form of flu. Worlwide, that figure is upwards of 450,00 to 500,000.

Have you eve given any thought to the fact that we here on this planet just well may be someone elses ( another planets ) lab expriment.

Besides God's little experiment here??? lol No, I haven't actually. I guess I am just too pragmatic/realistic in my thinking for that. I believe very strongly in science/modern medicine, so even my speculations/theories need to have some basis in proof, truth, fact, research and science.

But then, I do have a spiritual side as well. (I am simply not a huge fan of man-created religions) However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.
I am also interested in some paranormal things. I strongly believe for example in Synchronicity and have experienced it dozens and dozens of times in my life. I believe that there are true psychics in the world (along with loads of phony ones sadly). I believe very strongly in the "soul" for instance. I believe that all creatures and humans, have one. I also understand that we certainly do not have all the answers (yet) to many "mysteries", events (current and past) etc. We are learning and we change our beliefs and theories and upgrade them all the time and continue to make new discoveries.

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

Actually, there have been many, many studies done on the effect of prayer. And many of them do show a positive result.


Study Suggests Prayer Helps Heart
New Research Preaches the Benefits of Prayer

A new study released in the American Heart Journal says prayer helps the heart when combined with mainstream medical procedures.

Duke researchers studied 150 heart disease patients who were scheduled to undergo an invasive cardiac procedure in which a device known as a "stent" is placed into a clogged artery to hold it open. The patients were divided into categories. Some received therapies such as guided imagery, stress relaxation and healing touch, while others had unknown people pray for them without the patient knowing.

Twenty-five to thirty percent of those who received these therapies any of the additional therapies in combination with the cardiac procedure, were found to be at a lower risk of developing adverse affects, such as heart failure and even death. And participants who received prayers fared even better.


A Higher Power

Dr. Mitch Krucoff, lead author of the study and a cardiologist at Duke University Medical Center, says it's hard to explain how exactly prayer helps the heart.

"The mechanism through which this effect is achieved, whether or not God exists, and a host of other related areas are not illuminated by this particular clinical trial design."

William Harris, Director of Lipid and Metabolic Research with the Mid America Heart Institute of Saint Luke's-Shawnee Mission Health System in Kansas City, Mo., conducted a comparable study back in 1999, with similar results. He says there may be a number of answers that explain the benefits of prayer, but the results still raise some questions.

"The simplest answer is there's a God in the world and he listens to prayers. In our study they just had a first name to pray for, a Bob, or Mary, or Janet. And while they were praying for them, there are a lot of Bob's, Mary's, and Janet's in the hospital at the same time, and maybe in the control group as well. Now the question is, if that's true, how does the benefit acrue to this group? If there's no intervening intelligence to kind of know who this prayer is for. So for me, there is some sort of intervening intelligence."

Researchers say patients are becoming very interested in therapies that coincide with mainstream medicine, such as prayer. Because of this, additional research, including the second part of the Duke study, is already underway.

"The phase II study involves nine academic medical centers across the U.S., with a target enrollment ten times larger than the pilot study," says Krucoff.

Washington Post

At the Fairfax Community Church in Virginia, the faithful regularly pray for ailing strangers. Same goes at the Adas Israel synagogue in Washington and the Islamic Center of Maryland in Gaithersburg.

In churches, mosques, ashrams, "healing rooms," prayer groups and homes nationwide, millions of Americans offer prayers daily to heal themselves, family, friends, co-workers and even people found through the Internet. Fueled by the upsurge in religious expression in the United States, prayer is the most common complement to mainstream medicine, far outpacing acupuncture, herbs, vitamins and other alternative remedies.

"Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism -- every religion believes in prayer for healing," said Paul Parker, a professor of theology and religion at Elmhurst College outside Chicago. "Some call it prayer, some call it cleansing the mind. The words or posture may vary. But in times of illness, all religions look towards their source of authority."

The outpouring of spiritual healing has inspired a small group of researchers to attempt to use the tools of modern science to test the power of prayer to cure others. The results have been mixed and highly controversial. Skeptics say the work is a deeply flawed and misguided waste of money that irresponsibly attempts to validate the supernatural with science. And some believers say it is pointless to try to divine the workings of God with experiments devised by mortals.

Proponents, however, maintain the research is valuable, given the large numbers of people who believe in the power of prayer to influence health. Surveys have found that perhaps half of Americans regularly pray for their own health, and at least a quarter have others pray for them.

"It's one of the most prevalent forms of healing. Open-minded scientists have a responsibility to look into this," said Marilyn J. Schlitz of the California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco.

The contentious enterprise is at something of a crossroads. Two new studies are about to report no benefit of having people pray for the sick, the only study underway is nearing completion, and the largest, best-designed project is being published in two weeks. Its eagerly awaited findings could sound the death knell for the field, breathe new life into such efforts, or create new debate.

"I will guarantee you that study will have a very interesting impact on a lot of people's thinking," said Mitchell W. Krucoff of Duke University, who wrote an editorial that will accompany the closely guarded findings in the American Heart Journal. "But how you interpret the results will probably depend on your point of view."

Many studies done over the years indicate that the devout tend to be healthier. But the reasons remain far from clear. Healthy people may be more likely to join churches. The pious may lead more wholesome lifestyles. Churches, synagogues and mosques may help people take better care of themselves. The quiet meditation and incantations of praying, or the comfort of being prayed for, appears to lower blood pressure, reduce stress hormones, slow the heart rate and have other potentially beneficial effects.

But the most controversial research focuses on "intercessory" or "distant" prayer, which involves people trying to heal others through their intentions, thoughts or prayers, sometimes without the recipients knowing it. The federal government has spent $2.2 million in the past five years on studies of distant healing, which have also drawn support from private foundations.

San Francisco cardiologist Randolph Byrd, for example, conducted an experiment in which he asked born-again Christians to pray for 192 people hospitalized for heart problems, comparing them with 201 not targeted for prayer. No one knew which group they were in. He reported in 1988 that those who were prayed for needed fewer drugs and less help breathing.

William S. Harris of St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Mo., and colleagues published similar results in 1999 from a study involving nearly 1,000 heart patients, about half of whom were prayed for without their knowledge.

"Yesterday's science fiction often becomes tomorrow's science," said John A. Astin of the California Pacific Medical Center.

Proponents often cite a phenomenon from quantum physics, in which distant particles can affect each other's behavior in mysterious ways.

"When quantum physics was emerging, Einstein wrote about spooky interactions between particles at a distance," Krucoff said. "That's at least one very theoretical model that might support notions of distant prayer or distant healing."

Distant Intercessory Prayer and Task Performance
Lynn M. Munson and Douglas Degelman
Vanguard University of Southern California

Abstract
In an extension of research demonstrating causal effects of intercessory prayer for physical healing in a medical setting, the present study experimentally examined the effects of intercessory prayer for improved task performance in an employment setting. Trained customer service representatives either received, or did not receive (over a 14-day period) daily intercessory prayer for the specific needs and challenges of their workplace. Speed of call handling (number of calls per hour and number of seconds per call) did not differ significantly between prayer and no-prayer groups. Recommendations for research in this new area of study center on methodological issues, including the identification of additional dependent measures.

Distant Intercessory Prayer and Task Performance
Reviews of research on religion and health have concluded that at least some types of religious behaviors are related to higher levels of physical and mental health (Gartner, Larson, & Allen, 1991; Koenig, 1990; Levin & Vanderpool, 1991; Maton & Pargament, 1987; Paloma & Pendleton, 1991; Payne, Bergin, Bielema, & Jenkins, 1991). Researchers have identified prayer as one of these behaviors (Finney & Maloney, 1985; McCullough, 1995; Paloma & Pendleton, 1991).
The empirical studies examined in these reviews have almost all revealed a significant relationship between an individual's religious belief system and measures of well-being (Aldridge, 1991; Friedman & Benson, 1997; Larson et al., 1992; Matthews, 1997). A more difficult question to answer is whether the relationship between religion and health, or more specifically between prayer and health, is causal. Most studies examining prayer and health are correlational, leaving unanswered the question of whether prayer is causing the observed changes in health. To illustrate, if individuals who pray for physical healing (or know that others are praying for them) have more positive outcome measures, many would argue that the positive outcome is not the direct effect of the prayer, but instead may be the result of positive cognitive expectations.
Randolph Byrd (1988) experimentally examined the causal effect of intercessory prayer (prayer offered on behalf of another) on recovery from cardiological illness. In this double-blind study, patients hospitalized in a coronary care unit either received or did not receive daily prayer from Christian prayer intercessors. Patients receiving prayer had “less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated” (Byrd, 1988, p. 829).
In another randomized, double-blind study on the effect of healing therapy utilizing intercessory prayer on insulin dosage in type I diabetes mellitus patients, Wirth and Mitchell (1994) found that although there was a reduction in insulin dosage over a period of two weeks in the treatment condition compared to the control condition, the difference was not statistically large.

The scientists and the religious leaders of the world have always had all of the answers. The only problem is that outside of our own small realm and 99.99 % of what is inside our own realm , we know zilch. One will tell you that this is the only way it could have happened and the other will say the same thing. But boil it all down and neither one knows nothing about how we got here and if and where we go when we die. It is all speculation and what a person choses to believe. There never was, is, and so far as I can see, will not be any solid proof for either train of thought in the near future. So let's face it guys. With all of our advancements and superior knowledge, we are still just babes in the woods. We think, therefore we think we know. What a joke.

University of Maryland School of Medicine

Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health
Intercessory prayer is organised, regular and committed, where a person or group set time aside to communicate with God on behalf of another who is in some kind of need. It is practised by people who hold some committed belief that they are praying to God. Recipients of intercessory prayer may not know that they are being prayed for.

Other forms of prayer include organised prayer to God based around an advanced belief system, individualised sporadic prayer, spiritual healing, meditation and thanksgiving. Prayers can be spoken from within the framework of a variety of faiths and also by those who do not ascribe to a particular, formalised belief system.

What is known

Praying is an ancient custom. Prayer is widely used by people for good health and to overcome illness and ease suffering. The consequences of divine intervention may be subtle and not easily identified, which makes measurement of the effectiveness of prayer. Prayer may also have an effect that is not dependent on divine intervention and that is measurable, trials on the health outcomes of prayer are not about ‘proving’ that there is a God who responds to our prayers.

Intercessory prayer by people outside the healthcare surroundings is personal, focused and committed to pleading on behalf of another. This review considered trials in which organized prayer, in addition to the standard care, was compared with the relevant medical and non-medical care normally given to people diagnosed with the particular illness. The people praying held some religious belief that they were praying to a God with the intent of aiding people’s recovery.

What the synthesised research says

For women hoping for successful IVF treatment the findings of the one trial involving 169 women suggested a favourable outcome of prayer after four months of IVF treatment. Clearly more women had more successful implantations in the prayer group compared with standard care. Five women had to receive prayer for there to be one extra implantation (NNT 5, range 3 to 10). Participants and clinicians were unaware of the trial and its results.

In varying life-threatening conditions (6 trials with 6782 participants), the number of deaths was reduced amongst those receiving prayer (RR 0.88, 0.80 to 0.97). One trial separated death data into 'high' and 'low' risk cardiac patients and found prayer had a positive effect on patients at 'high' risk of death (445 patients, NNT 8 (range 7 to 11)) but not the low risk patients.

Once again, I believe that you can pick almost any subject, find hundreds of studies and volumes of research and find that most scientists will disagree with the findings and that there are just as many studies that show a positive result (for prayer in this case) as those that do not or show a negative result.

Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory
Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit.

“Objective: To determine whether remote, intercessory prayer for
hospitalized, cardiac patients will reduce overall adverse events and
length of stay.

Design: Randomized, controlled, double-blind, prospective,
parallel-group trial.

Patients: Nine hundred ninety consecutive patients who were newly
admitted to the coronary care unit (CCU).

At the time of admission, patients were randomized to receive remote,
intercessory prayer (prayer group) or not (usual care group). The
first names of patients in the prayer group were given to a team of
outside intercessors who prayed for them daily for 4 weeks. Patients
were unaware that they were being prayed for, and the intercessors did
not know and never met the patients.

Conclusions: Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower
CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an
effective adjunct to standard medical care.”

http://www.nccc-online.org/caregivers_3.htm

In Editors correspondence dated June 26, 2000, Donald R. Hoover, PhD,
and Joseph B. Margolick, MD, PhD question the design and findings of
the above study.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v160n12/ffull/ilt0626-13.html

Another study from the Department of Medicine, Beilinson Campus,
Rabin Medical Center, Petah-Tiqva Israel:

Beyond Science? Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on
outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomized controlled
trial

“Objective: To determine whether remote, retroactive intercessory
prayer, said for a group of patients with a bloodstream infection, has
an effect on outcomes.

Intervention: In July 2000 patients were randomized to a control group
and an intervention group. A remote, retroactive intercessory prayer
was said for the well being and full recovery of the intervention
group.

Conclusions: Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group
is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of
fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be
considered for use in clinical practice.”

http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/323/7327/1450?view=full&pmid=11751349

More than fifty 50 letters were sent to the Journal concerning the
above study.
http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/323/7327/1450#18219

A 2001 study in the Mayo Clinic:

Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a
coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial.

“OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely
practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression
after hospital discharge.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted
between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were
randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or
to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more
persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week
for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient.

CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no
significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a
coronary care unit.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11761499&dopt=Abstract

A study published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine:

Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization-Embryo
Transfer?

“The objective of the study was to assess the potential effect of
intercessory prayer (IP) on pregnancy rates in women being treated
with in vitro fertilization-embryo transfer.

A short excerpt of the abstract:

“Study Design: Prospective, double-blind, randomized clinical trial in
which patients and providers were not informed about the intervention.
Statisticians and investigators were masked until all the data had
been collected and clinical outcomes were known. The setting was an
IVF-ET program at Cha Hospital, Seoul, Korea. IP was carried out by
prayer groups in the United States, Canada and Australia. The
investigators were at a tertiary medical center in the United States.
The patients were 219 women aged 26-46 years who were consecutively
treated with IVF-ET over a four-month period.”
Results:

After clinical pregnancies were known, the data were unmasked to
assess the effects of IP after assessment of multiple comparisons in a
log-linear model. The IP group had a higher pregnancy rate as compared
to the no-IP rate. The IP group showed a higher implantation rate.

Conclusion: A statistically significant difference was observed for
the effect of IP on the outcome of IVF-ET, though the data should be
interpreted as preliminary.”

Source: Journal of Reproductive Medicine
http://www.jreprodmed.com/abs/jrm1137.htm

Intercessory Prayer and Its Effect on Patients with Rheumatoid
Arthritis.

“This (2000) study suggested that personal intercessory prayer was
useful in the medical treatment of patients with rheumatoid arthritis,
improving overall health. However, distant prayer showed no overall
improvement.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11859558&dopt=Abstract

Interventional Cardiology
American Heart Journal - November 2001
http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=abs&id=a119138&nav=abs&special=hilite&query=%5Babstract%5D%28mantra%2C%29%5Bbody%5D%28mantra%2C%29%5Barticletitle%5D%28mantra%2C%29%5Bcontribs%5D%28mantra%2C%29

Commentaries on intercessory prayer:

Adriane Fugh-Berman, assistant clinical professor of health care
science at George Washington University of Medicine, told the "Post"
that trying to scientifically determine prayer's effect on health was
almost impossible. "Prayer studies are interesting, but from a public
health point of view they are not the best place to put our dollars."
http://awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm

Dr. Gerald P. Bodey, MD commenting on distant intercessory prayer.
Source: Archives of Internal Medicine
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v162n12/ffull/ilt0624-3.html

Brian Bolton, PhD also comments on distant intercessory prayer:
Source: Archives of Internal Medicine
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v162n12/ffull/ilt0624-6.html

A technique known as therapeutic touch, prayer on someone's behalf and
other kinds of "distance healing" may have a positive effect on
patients, according to a University of Maryland School of Medicine
researcher, who has reviewed dozens of studies. His findings are
published in the June 6th edition of the Annals of Internal Medicine.
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/dis-healing.html

“Scientific Research of Prayer: Can the Power of Prayer Be Proven?” by
Debra Williams - 1999 PLIM REPORT.
http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

An ABC news report: “A Miracle or Simply Chance?

“Dr. Elizabeth Targ, a psychiatrist at the Pacific College of Medicine
in San Francisco, has tested out prayer on critically ill AIDS
patients. All 20 patients in the study got pretty much the same
medical treatment, but only half of them were prayed for by spiritual
healers. Ultimately, 10 of the prayed-for patients lived, while four
who had not been prayed for died. In a larger follow-up study, Targ
found that the people who received prayer and remote healing had six
times fewer hospitalizations and those hospitalizations were
significantly shorter than the people who received no prayer and
distant healing.”

“Dr. Deepak Chopra, who is well-known for his insights on science and
spirituality, says these prayer experiments are proving what he's been
saying all along: There are healing forces in nature that science is
only beginning to understand.

Source: ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html

An article dated Nov. 6, 2001 “The Power of Prayer in Medicine
People Who Are Prayed for Fare Better” by Jeanie Davis
WebMD Website
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1728.92943

“A Frontier of Medical Research: Prayer” by Jane Lampmann, Staff
writer of The Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/03/25/us/us.1.html

“Many believe faith heals” by Andrew Holtz dated December 16, 1996.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9612/16/faith.healing/index.html

Old Timer wrote:The scientists and the religious leaders of the world have always had all of the answers. The only problem is that outside of our own small realm and 99.99 % of what is inside our own realm , we know zilch. One will tell you that this is the only way it could have happened and the other will say the same thing. But boil it all down and neither one knows nothing about how we got here and if and where we go when we die. It is all speculation and what a person choses to believe. There never was, is, and so far as I can see, will not be any solid proof for either train of thought in the near future. So let's face it guys. With all of our advancements and superior knowledge, we are still just babes in the woods. We think, therefore we think we know. What a joke.

Well, I think that scientists and religious leaders often THINK they have all the answers, but are often proven wrong eventually. lol Knowledge is always evolving and should never be stagnant. Look at how much we have studied the human brain for instance and yet how little we don't know about it to this day, compared to what we do know. There is always much more that we do not know, than what we do know. The scientific community is always changing the standard of what they once claimed as the end all be all of fact for any of the sciences, only to find more facts, research, discoveries, etc., Then it all changes yet again doesn't it? We often gain better tools and methods, but those also often lead us to more questions rather than more answers. One has to leave the door open for more possibilities also.

Interesting links. I'll have to take a look at those studies. Just browsing through, the results appear to be on the verge of significance (p=0.04), and for each study, only one measure out of many. I wonder if someone has done a review, I'll need to google it.

I haven't looked myself in sometime til today and I only looked for a few minutes. I know a few years back Time had a cover story that was quite large (many pages) and cited several studies done in England, Russia and the US, I believe it was and listed many examples/studies, interviewed doctors etc. It was excellent and interesting. I know way back I read one in JAMA and Scientific America and a few other places, because at the time, (several years ago) I found this all very interesting.

Again, this all harkins back to my huge ongoing love of all science and medicine ( I have studied archeology, biology, astronomy, genetics.....you name it over the decades and my ass is glued to all the Discovery channels, National Geograhic etc., and I read loads on the internet, and books and yet there is my spiritual side, experiences and belief in the power of the mind and in a higher power.

I have a friend who works at JPL and is in charge of deep space propulsion systems and we once spent hours discussing the String Theory. At the time, I thought it was the most marvelous thing since sliced bread and it fasinated me to no end. I love talking to him. And then I have another friend, and his best friend has actually worked with different law enforcement agencies and the FBI for many years to help solve murder and kidnapping cases (she is a psychic and well documented) and I have spent hours discussing all sorts of things with her when she has come to L.A. and I get the chance to, (which has not been often).

Okay, I am wierd. I'll admit it. It's just my dual nature I guess. I love facts and data but I also love and crave the spiritual.

FLU KILLS 149 IN MEXICO; MOVES CLOSER TO WORLD PANDEMIC OUTBREAK

MEXICO CITY, April 28 — A new virus has killed up to 149 people in Mexico and the World Health Organisation moved closer yesterday to declaring it the first flu pandemic in 40 years as more people were infected in the United States and Europe.

The WHO raised its pandemic alert level for the swine flu virus to phase 4, indicating a significantly increased risk of a pandemic, a global outbreak of a serious disease.

The last such outbreak, a “Hong Kong” flu pandemic in 1968, killed about 1 million people.

Although the new flu strain has so far killed people only in Mexico, there were more than 40 confirmed cases in the United States, including 20 at a New York City school where eight cases were already identified.

In Mexico City, fearful Christians paraded a centuries-old statue of Jesus, believed to protect against disease, through the streets for the first time in more than a century.

The swine flu is not caught from eating pig meat products, but several countries imposed import bans on pork from the United States. Stocks in companies such as airlines were also hit as investors worried about the impact on travel.

Spain became the first country in Europe to confirm a case of swine flu when a man who returned from a trip to Mexico last week was found to have the virus.

Texas health authorities confirmed a third case of swine flu at a school near the Mexican border and California said it now had 11 confirmed cases.

The US State Department and the European Union urged citizens to avoid non-essential travel Mexico and other areas affected by swine flu.

Mexico relies on tourism as its third biggest source of foreign currency and millions of Americans travel there every year.

Mexican Health Minister Jose Angel Cordova said the outbreak was now suspected of having killed 149 people and warned the number of cases would keep rising.

Thirty-three million Mexican schoolchildren will be off school until the middle of next week as authorities seek to contain the outbreak. Schools in the sprawling capital had already been closed but the government ordered classes canceled across the country until May 6.

Most of the those who died were between 20 and 50 years of age, an ominous sign because a hallmark of past pandemics has been the high rate of fatalities among healthy young adults.

Worldwide, seasonal flu kills between 250,000 and 500,000 people in an average year but the new strain worries experts because it spreads rapidly between humans and there is no vaccine for it.

WHO's Pandemic Alert Phases:

GENEVA, April 28 — The World Health Organisation (WHO) today revised its 6-point scale for pandemic alerts, saying that phase 5 would correspond to a strong signal that a pandemic was “imminent.”

WHO uses a series of six phases of pandemic alert as a system for informing the world of the seriousness of the threat and the need to launch progressively more intense preparations and measures.

Margaret Chan, director-general of the United Nations agency in Geneva, is charged with deciding on when to move from one phase to another.

Her decision is based on advice from international public health experts who held an emergency meeting yesterday.

The WHO emergency committee is assessing the risk from a swine flu outbreak that has killed up to 149 people in Mexico and spread across the world.

A full-blown pandemic, level 6, denotes sustained, human-to-human spread over many countries of a new and serious virus.

Here are details of the six phases:

— PHASES 1-3:

Predominantly animal infections: few human infections.

* PHASE 1:

No animal influenza virus circulating among animals is reported to cause infection in animals.

* PHASE 2:

Animal influenza virus is known to have caused infection in humans and is therefore a potential pandemic threat.

* PHASE 3:

Animal or human-animal influenza virus causes sporadic cases or clusters of cases in people, but no human-to-human transmission, except in specific circumstances.


— PHASE 4

Sustained human-to-human transmissions.

* PHASE 4:

Human to human transmission of an animal or human-animal influenza virus able to sustain community-level outbreaks.

"The ability to cause sustained disease outbreaks in a community marks a significant upwards shift in the risk for a pandemic."

— PHASES 5-6/PANDEMIC

Widespread human infection.

* PHASE 5: The same virus causes sustained community-level outbreaks in two or more countries in one region.

“While most countries will not be affected at this stage, the declaration of Phase 5 is a strong signal that a pandemic is imminent and that the time to finalise the organisation, communication, and implementation of the planned mitigation measures is short.”

* PHASE 6:

The virus causes sustained community-level outbreaks in more than one region.

“Designation of this phase will indicate that a global pandemic is under way.”

— POST PEAK

Possibility of recurrent events.

Pandemic levels dropping below peak levels, but countries need to be prepared for a second wave.

— POST PANDEMIC

Disease activity at seasonal levels.

Aren't we all getting a little worked up over this? Every year the world is going to die from a different outbreak. Wasn't SARS supposed to kill everybody? Wasn't West Nile Virus supposed to kill everybody? What about the Bird Flu? Wasn't that the next big one? Now it's swine flu. I predict by July most everybody will have forgotten about this pandemic and the whole world will once again be focused on the killer sharks off the coast of Florida who are hunting mothers and their new born babies or whatever.

Big Slick wrote:Aren't we all getting a little worked up over this? Every year the world is going to die from a different outbreak. Wasn't SARS supposed to kill everybody? Wasn't West Nile Virus supposed to kill everybody? What about the Bird Flu? Wasn't that the next big one? Now it's swine flu. I predict by July most everybody will have forgotten about this pandemic and the whole world will once again be focused on the killer sharks off the coast of Florida who are hunting mothers and their new born babies or whatever.

That's what I was thinking. And those masks aint gonna keep you from getting it. All they do is help the person wearing it from spreading their germs too far. I doubt I jump to get any flu shoots they try to rush into people either. Wasn't it 76 when they pushed the shot for that years flu? They pushed it out so fast they didn't take time to test it. The cure wound up paralyzing like 500 people, and that was after just one person died from the flu.

Kazza wrote:

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

I believe that prayer does have an effect on an individual. Specifically when that individual is physically present and hears other people praying for them or for a situation to be changed. Same as the individual theirself praying. It is a method of Physocological focusing of the mind. Much as Meditation accompliahes the same. Too often, in this world, which tends to be extremely hard and harsh, many, many people feel that that have noi support and have to solve and work out life's issues on their own. When they become directly mentally aware that others care enough to give them attention of the first otrder, which prayer for one example provides; this happens to actually perfome miracles.
Sincere and timely praise is another manner of accomplishing the same and works on the same order.

coontie wrote:

Kazza wrote:

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

I believe that prayer does have an effect on an individual. Specifically when that individual is physically present and hears other people praying for them or for a situation to be changed. Same as the individual theirself praying. It is a method of Physocological focusing of the mind. Much as Meditation accompliahes the same. Too often, in this world, which tends to be extremely hard and harsh, many, many people feel that that have noi support and have to solve and work out life's issues on their own. When they become directly mentally aware that others care enough to give them attention of the first otrder, which prayer for one example provides; this happens to actually perfome miracles.
Sincere and timely praise is another manner of accomplishing the same and works on the same order.

Miracles happen every single day, somewhere on our planet, even small ones.

coontie wrote:

Kazza wrote:

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

I believe that prayer does have an effect on an individual. Specifically when that individual is physically present and hears other people praying for them or for a situation to be changed. Same as the individual theirself praying. It is a method of Physocological focusing of the mind. Much as Meditation accompliahes the same. Too often, in this world, which tends to be extremely hard and harsh, many, many people feel that that have noi support and have to solve and work out life's issues on their own. When they become directly mentally aware that others care enough to give them attention of the first otrder, which prayer for one example provides; this happens to actually perfome miracles.
Sincere and timely praise is another manner of accomplishing the same and works on the same order.

All the studies that PIOTB posted only considered people being prayed about that didn't know they were being prayed about. The only study that I've seen that let the patients know they were being prayed for is the one that I linked to. They actually found that knowing someone was praying for you made them worse. They figured it might be because of the extra "pressure" on the person to get better.

I've no doubt that praying yourself would have a beneficial effect, though. And probably if you knew people were praying for you, but weren't under pressure to have your beliefs validated in a study, then that would help as well. Both are examples of the placebo effect, as well as the calming/relaxation that you mention.

hey, i'm no doctor, but i think we're busting out into a sweat over nothing. it's the same thing, just a different tune, every year.
now, here's advice from dr. mom: wash your hands well and often, don't stress out, get sufficient rest and eat right. breath in...........breath out.......and take it easy, kids.

Kazza wrote:

coontie wrote:

Kazza wrote:

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

I believe that prayer does have an effect on an individual. Specifically when that individual is physically present and hears other people praying for them or for a situation to be changed. Same as the individual theirself praying. It is a method of Physocological focusing of the mind. Much as Meditation accompliahes the same. Too often, in this world, which tends to be extremely hard and harsh, many, many people feel that that have noi support and have to solve and work out life's issues on their own. When they become directly mentally aware that others care enough to give them attention of the first otrder, which prayer for one example provides; this happens to actually perfome miracles.
Sincere and timely praise is another manner of accomplishing the same and works on the same order.

All the studies that PIOTB posted only considered people being prayed about that didn't know they were being prayed about. The only study that I've seen that let the patients know they were being prayed for is the one that I linked to. They actually found that knowing someone was praying for you made them worse. They figured it might be because of the extra "pressure" on the person to get better.

I've no doubt that praying yourself would have a beneficial effect, though. And probably if you knew people were praying for you, but weren't under pressure to have your beliefs validated in a study, then that would help as well. Both are examples of the placebo effect, as well as the calming/relaxation that you mention.

didn't say anything about any "beliefs" [your code for religion] and "validation". I know what you infer, which I am not.

coontie wrote:

Kazza wrote:

coontie wrote:

Kazza wrote:

Put It Out There Baby wrote: However, for example, there have been many scientific studies conducted and relating to various "spiritual"/"religious"matters, such as studies that proove and show that when patients are prayed for by a large group of people, they have better survival rates, less complications, less side effects from their medicines, fewer deaths and heal quicker. (this is the case even when the patient does not know that they are being prayed for) And, there are miracles everyday that science/medicine cannot explain at all, yet they occur.

Actually, that study proved the exact opposite. There was absolutely no difference between the group that was being prayed for and the group that wasn't. Prayer had no effect whatsoever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

The people that knew they were being prayed for actually did worse.

I believe that prayer does have an effect on an individual. Specifically when that individual is physically present and hears other people praying for them or for a situation to be changed. Same as the individual theirself praying. It is a method of Physocological focusing of the mind. Much as Meditation accompliahes the same. Too often, in this world, which tends to be extremely hard and harsh, many, many people feel that that have noi support and have to solve and work out life's issues on their own. When they become directly mentally aware that others care enough to give them attention of the first otrder, which prayer for one example provides; this happens to actually perfome miracles.
Sincere and timely praise is another manner of accomplishing the same and works on the same order.

All the studies that PIOTB posted only considered people being prayed about that didn't know they were being prayed about. The only study that I've seen that let the patients know they were being prayed for is the one that I linked to. They actually found that knowing someone was praying for you made them worse. They figured it might be because of the extra "pressure" on the person to get better.

I've no doubt that praying yourself would have a beneficial effect, though. And probably if you knew people were praying for you, but weren't under pressure to have your beliefs validated in a study, then that would help as well. Both are examples of the placebo effect, as well as the calming/relaxation that you mention.

didn't say anything about any "beliefs" [your code for religion] and "validation". I know what you infer, which I am not.

I wasn't referring to your beliefs there, I was referring to the patient's.

Imagine you're a patient, and, like most Americans, you're a christian. Then some guy says that they're doing a study on whether or not having people pray for you makes you heal better. All of a sudden there are people trying to work out whether or not God answers prayers, and the answer to that depends on how quickly you heal! That's a lot of pressure to be under. You'd be doing everything you could to heal quickly because doing so would confirm your own belief that God answers prayers. But by trying to heal quickly you're probably going to do more harm than good.

Very few and far between where God will heal the body today, and if He does it cannot be proven. When Jesus told his followers, "...only say the word and you will be healed", he was referring to spiritual health: he would heal your soul so you will one day have eternal peace.

In fact, he preached to see a doctor when you are sick. Jesus said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick do. But go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Matt. 9:12-13). Jesus was talking to the religious teachers of his day, who thought that because of their religious practices they deserved eternal life. They thought that they were healthy. Jesus told them that he would save only those who admit that they are diseased with sin.

Once the truth (that Jesus is God) had been revealed and established by miraculous power, there is no further need for the exercise or use of that power. God does for us through his inspired word what he once did through miracles before the truth was written down for us to know. Now we have in the Bible the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) which will give us "all that pertains to life and godliness" (II Timothy 3:16, 17).

While He had compassion on men who were diseased and unfortunate, His primary reason for performing these miracles was to prove that He was indeed the Christ, the Son of God.

in short, he does not promise his flock good physical health, but certainly promises the faithful good spiritual/eternal health.

HotParadox wrote:Very few and far between where God will heal the body today, and if He does it cannot be proven. When Jesus told his followers, "...only say the word and you will be healed", he was referring to spiritual health: he would heal your soul so you will one day have eternal peace.

In fact, he preached to see a doctor when you are sick. Jesus said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick do. But go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Matt. 9:12-13). Jesus was talking to the religious teachers of his day, who thought that because of their religious practices they deserved eternal life. They thought that they were healthy. Jesus told them that he would save only those who admit that they are diseased with sin.

Once the truth (that Jesus is God) had been revealed and established by miraculous power, there is no further need for the exercise or use of that power. God does for us through his inspired word what he once did through miracles before the truth was written down for us to know. Now we have in the Bible the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) which will give us "all that pertains to life and godliness" (II Timothy 3:16, 17).

While He had compassion on men who were diseased and unfortunate, His primary reason for performing these miracles was to prove that He was indeed the Christ, the Son of God.

in short, he does not promise his flock good physical health, but certainly promises the faithful good spiritual/eternal health.

In fact he promises very little to us here in the physical world. Little more than we'll have what we need. And we do have what we need. If we choose not to use it, that's on us, not God.

CarolinaHound wrote:

HotParadox wrote:Very few and far between where God will heal the body today, and if He does it cannot be proven. When Jesus told his followers, "...only say the word and you will be healed", he was referring to spiritual health: he would heal your soul so you will one day have eternal peace.

In fact, he preached to see a doctor when you are sick. Jesus said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick do. But go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Matt. 9:12-13). Jesus was talking to the religious teachers of his day, who thought that because of their religious practices they deserved eternal life. They thought that they were healthy. Jesus told them that he would save only those who admit that they are diseased with sin.

Once the truth (that Jesus is God) had been revealed and established by miraculous power, there is no further need for the exercise or use of that power. God does for us through his inspired word what he once did through miracles before the truth was written down for us to know. Now we have in the Bible the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) which will give us "all that pertains to life and godliness" (II Timothy 3:16, 17).

While He had compassion on men who were diseased and unfortunate, His primary reason for performing these miracles was to prove that He was indeed the Christ, the Son of God.

in short, he does not promise his flock good physical health, but certainly promises the faithful good spiritual/eternal health.

In fact he promises very little to us here in the physical world. Little more than we'll have what we need. And we do have what we need. If we choose not to use it, that's on us, not God.

well said, doggieboy. it's a complete misunderstanding of his words to assume that he will give you whatever you pray for. he promises to do his will for your good and ultimately the good of his kingdom.

i love you new avatar, btw.

Thank you.

I don't know why anyone would assume that if you pray for something, it will happen or be gratnted. I certainly have never stated that, nor do I believe it. I however am apparently alone here in believing in the power of prayer and that it may and can affect changes because of a higher power. I have no problem with that either. I am secure in what I believe I know. I also still believe in miracles as I have seen and experienced them in my own and in other's lives. I do not believe that I am mis-interpreting anything either, but then I don't use a book as the end all be all for myself either. It's great for someone to follow the Bible, but I do not take take it all so literally. The Bible, for example (and this is true of many books from other religions as well) was written by men, has undergone hundreds of translations from various languages and from it's content and plenty changes and versions and has been edited many times and much left out and added. That is the issue that I have with it. I prefer to go directly to the source so to speak. lol

It's the same issue for me with all the man made religions and all the arguements about who's religion is the right one and the better one and I believe that is all hogwash. A relationship with God or whatever you perceive Him to be, is a personal one and with Him, not with any book or an religion or church and all the other stuff is just not needed and are frills and fraught with problems and issues. This relationship has nothing to do with any book or any one religion actually.

I am sure we can all point to the most pious of people who go to church every week, those who can quote the Bible at a drop of a hat but who are the most unkind, bigoted, nasty, selfish people as well. Going to church and/or reading and quoting some version of the zillion out there of the Bible, does not make anyone religious in my opinion. It it how you live your life and your personal relationship with God (not how you perceive God) and how strong and deep and active that relationship is with what you know and believe as "God". No religion has the market on anything as far as I am concerned and a relationship and being in tune with God is so much more and again, much of what is taught and flounced around comes from man and man's imperfect concepts and perceptions as well as all the books that are held dear by any religion which again are written, run and interpreted by man.

It seems to me that many people spend more time in clutching onto a book or books and a church or a specific religion than they do even getting to know God or having that deep, meaningful, ongoing relationtion/friendship/interaction with him. But they love to talk about him and lecture people on how what they believe is the end all be all and the way to go and their little expert opinion. Sort of like those Christians that think only those who are saved will go to heaven, or the next life etc., and the hell with all the other billions of people on the planet and what they experience and believe. lol There are bigger fish to fry so to speak and bigger levels of faith, and that is open to everyone.

I think because we as humans do not have all the answers, we are still stuck with the basics that we have been taught, and many have not deveoped much beyond all of that, we cling on to things that we perceive have it all neatly layed out for us and will give us answers, even if those answers could not be further from the truth, exclude other people and are so little on the grand scale of things. That's sad to me. This is just my opinion/experience. Everyone is free to believe what they will, make their own choices and live their own life.

BTW, prayer for me is not "asking for things" nor repeating some rote words learned as a child. It is a dialogue between you and what you know as God. Just like speaking with, knowing, living with and being with your best friend and listening to them as well.

Put It Out There Baby wrote:I don't know why anyone would assume that if you pray for something, it will happen or be gratnted. I certainly have never stated that, nor do I believe it. I however am apparently alone here in believing in the power of prayer and that it may and can affect changes because of a higher power. I have no problem with that either. I am secure in what I believe I know. I also still believe in miracles as I have seen and experienced them in my own and in other's lives. I do not believe that I am mis-interpreting anything either, but then I don't use a book as the end all be all for myself either. It's great for someone to follow the Bible, but I do not take take it all so literally. The Bible, for example (and this is true of many books from other religions as well) was written by men, has undergone hundreds of translations from various languages and from it's content and plenty changes and versions and has been edited many times and much left out and added. That is the issue that I have with it. I prefer to go directly to the source so to speak. lol

It's the same issue for me with all the man made religions and all the arguements about who's religion is the right one and the better one and I believe that is all hogwash. A relationship with God or whatever you perceive Him to be, is a personal one and with Him, not with any book or an religion or church and all the other stuff is just not needed and are frills and fraught with problems and issues. This relationship has nothing to do with any book or any one religion actually.

I am sure we can all point to the most pious of people who go to church every week, those who can quote the Bible at a drop of a hat but who are the most unkind, bigoted, nasty, selfish people as well. Going to church and/or reading and quoting some version of the zillion out there of the Bible, does not make anyone religious in my opinion. It it how you live your life and your personal relationship with God (not how you perceive God) and how strong and deep and active that relationship is with what you know and believe as "God". No religion has the market on anything as far as I am concerned and a relationship and being in tune with God is so much more and again, much of what is taught and flounced around comes from man and man's imperfect concepts and perceptions as well as all the books that are held dear by any religion which again are written, run and interpreted by man.

It seems to me that many people spend more time in clutching onto a book or books and a church or a specific religion than they do even getting to know God or having that deep, meaningful, ongoing relationtion/friendship/interaction with him. But they love to talk about him and lecture people on how what they believe is the end all be all and the way to go and their little expert opinion. Sort of like those Christians that think only those who are saved will go to heaven, or the next life etc., and the hell with all the other billions of people on the planet and what they experience and believe. lol There are bigger fish to fry so to speak and bigger levels of faith, and that is open to everyone.

I think because we as humans do not have all the answers, we are still stuck with the basics that we have been taught, and many have not deveoped much beyond all of that, we cling on to things that we perceive have it all neatly layed out for us and will give us answers, even if those answers could not be further from the truth, exclude other people and are so little on the grand scale of things. That's sad to me. This is just my opinion/experience. Everyone is free to believe what they will, make their own choices and live their own life.

You're not alone. I know prayer can greatly help in many circumstances. I have no doubt that my loved ones praying for me played a great role in me being able to wake up on this side of the dirt. And well said. I feel much the same as you on this subject.

i agree with you doggieboy. God listens to all prayers of His flock and answers every single one. sometimes He answers us and we refuse to listen to his answer however. we think because He didn't answer it the way we hoped, that He has abandoned us when, in fact, He answers us according to what is truly best for us and Him: HIS will.
(i may not use caps all the time when referring to Him; no disrespect intended).

in the bible, when Christ teaches us how to pray. he offers us the Perfect Prayer: that which he prayed to his own father. to take each word and try to fully understand them, will help all believers understand what we as christian can expect from, and give to, our father.

to recite without thinking out the words is rejected by Christ. in fact, any repetitious prayer is rejected as being insincere, rote and trite.

praying using Jesus’ words as a template gives us the following way to form our prayers:

1) Acknowledge who God is.
2) Pray for His work on earth.
3) Ask for what you need.
4) Ask for forgiveness.
5) Ask for a way to deal with temptation and opposition.

the order is crucial, and it’s the part we get wrong all the time.

The Lord's Prayer is the model of prayer that Jesus taught us, as recorded in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. it is presented here in traditional and modern language:

The Lord's Prayer

Traditional:
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

Modern:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name. (His name is holy and sacred; do not take His name in vain)
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done, (NOTICE: YOUR will, not MY will, YOUR will be done)
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us. (you are commanded to forgive others if you expect to be forgiven by God.)
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever. Amen

again, the order in which we pray is important. the prayer starts by addressing God as our Father in heaven, that although His name is honored, and above all other names, we are His children. as such, we occupy a place of privilege, and He wants us to spend time in prayer with Him.
The Lords prayer then moves on to pray that God's Kingdom, or rule, will become the norm on earth, replacing human rules and governments, which too often are driven by greed and power. only then do we turn to our own needs, and ask our Father for our basic human needs to be satisfied, and that He would forgive the wrong things that we have done. we ask for God's guidance and protection as we journey through life. finally, we turn back to God, and acknowledge His supremacy and position as the Almighty ruler.

Well, just as I have stated, this view/example above (which is the traditional Catholic view) is the view of only one religion and only one religion's book that believes it has all the answers and knows everything and is the correct view and that they know exactly what God is and how God operates and how a person must relate to God. Sorry, I do not agree. But, we all do, in the end, what works for us don't we? The real tuth is a discovery for all man-made religions and those who follow them. I just do not subscribe to any religion or books that leave out the billions of other people on this planet, condems them and believes that those people's "method/beliefs" are incorrect and false and that their ridgid, conceived by man views are more valuable and again, more correct than anyone elses.

that's funny. i'm not catholic. as a matter of complete fact, this is a biblical viewpoint. i have no faith in organized religion.

HotParadox wrote:that's funny. i'm not catholic.

Well, what you described above, is exactly what I was taught in Catholic school and in their church. I thought I had read on here and obviously I am mistaken, that you were Catholic or raised a Catholic or something. That is my mistake then, but what you have said in your statement and my response to it, no matter what Christian religion that you do subscribe to or do not subscribe to (the Bible is Christian based-so perhaps you just call yourself a "Christian"), still applies.

What I responded with, applies to all man-made religions and man made religious books, Christian or otherwise. I do not find it neccessary, or even meaningful, to have rules, guidelines, direction and a specific method or any rote words to communicate with God. I find all of that rather limiting, narrow and presumptuous. Some people need this, believe it is "the only way", think that is the truth and believe that everyone who does not follow these rules is incorrect/wrong and yet others simply do not believe or practice any set, rote method, perscribed by any, one, man-made religion or book. The "method" that you describe in your post for prayer and the concepts of God,etc., certainly leave out billions of people on this planet doesn't it? In my experience and for others, God does not actually care about any of this. lol What a concept!

I don't usually use any specific words when I prey. If I'm preying for someone, I ask god to be with them. In general it's more of a meditation. I reflect on my day, or my past, see what I've done wrong and what I've done right, ask for forgiveness and strength and/or wisdom to do better. And thank him cause all in all, comparatively speaking, life ain't bad.

Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's what I do.

CarolinaHound wrote:I don't usually use any specific words when I prey. If I'm preying for someone, I ask god to be with them. In general it's more of a meditation. I reflect on my day, or my past, see what I've done wrong and what I've done right, ask for forgiveness and strength and/or wisdom to do better. And thank him cause all in all, comparatively speaking, life ain't bad.

Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's what I do.

It makes perfect sense because this is a personal and private dialogue between you and God and a personal and private relationship. It is not to be dictated by others. It is your communication, and as I have stated, I believe, it is the relationship and the communication that matters, not how it is done. Real communication and belief and experience on a real level has nothing to do with others or their beliefs, but has to do with who you are communicating to and with and is not under any man made concepts or beliefs and not available or realavant for any others to dictate or demean. A relationship grows between two people and from within, not from a list of ridgid rules, edicts and other's concepts of the truth or their perceptions of God or any man created religion. It is about growth and deepness and sincerity. Go with what has meaning for you and works for you.

There are many paths to God and none is more correct or more right than another's path and many can actually be very off track. At least that is what I believe. This is about an everlasting and evolving relationship that is guided and formed and grows by the person and by God. Where ever one is, is okay. What is not okay is the notion that only their way is the right way. This is a personal issue. As one develops their relationship, you begin to see the ridiculousness, unimportance and the fallacy of set rules and methods and man made concepts and their unending and ever changing interpretations.

I always have to laugh about this subject and shake my head because when you have a relationship with a friend, there are no books written, followed and dictated and subscribed to by huge masses of people that all conflict with eachother and a million different rules about how to have a relationship or talk to your friend and have a life with them. But when it comes to "God" and "religion"........look out! lmao I find it rather silly. If all a person can do is quote from one book and/or cling to one religious concept, and that is all they have, I find it rather strange, narrow and very intolerant of the billions of other people on this planet and on this journey.

Put It Out There Baby wrote:

HotParadox wrote:that's funny. i'm not catholic.

Well, what you described above, is exactly what I was taught in Catholic school and in their church. I thought I had read on here and obviously I am mistaken, that you were Catholic or raised a Catholic or something. That is my mistake then, but what you have said in your statement and my response to it, no matter what Christian religion that you do subscribe to or do not subscribe to (the Bible is Christian based-so perhaps you just call yourself a "Christian"), still applies.

What I responded with, applies to all man-made religions and man made religious books, Christian or otherwise. I do not find it neccessary, or even meaningful, to have rules, guidelines, direction and a specific method or any rote words to communicate with God. I find all of that rather limiting, narrow and presumptuous. Some people need this, believe it is "the only way", think that is the truth and believe that everyone who does not follow these rules is incorrect/wrong and yet others simply do not believe or practice any set, rote method, perscribed by any, one, man-made religion or book. The "method" that you describe in your post for prayer and the concepts of God,etc., certainly leave out billions of people on this planet doesn't it? In my experience and for others, God does not actually care about any of this. lol What a concept!

i always felt that the best approach is to do what you feel is right. I don't judge you or anyone else. my opinion is just that-an opinion. god knows your heart and i don't get to play god and judge it.

and when people judge me and assume? to be frank, their opinion doesn't phase me.

HotParadox wrote:

"and when people judge me and assume? to be frank, their opinion doesn't phase me."

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing. lol

Put It Out There Baby wrote:

HotParadox wrote:

"and when people judge me and assume? to be frank, their opinion doesn't phase me."

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing. lol

right. we have no business judging each other, do we?