BE AMERICAN - BUY AMERICAN or shut the f--k up

by Susan aka CV Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:57 pm

okay folks. i just came from a 12 person meeting where, in general conversation, the subject of the auto bailout came up. everybody had their opinion.. okay, fine. however, when i asked for a show of hands from those who were driving an american made car, there were 2, and i was one of them. so here goes:

we can go

and

about this auto bailout business forever. but from where i sit, which happens to be behind the wheel of a jeep grand cherokee or a chrysler 300:

if you are driving around in a foreign made vehicle, then the FACT of the matter is - you helped create this mess in the first place, and therefore have no right WHATSOEVER to bitch and moan about what's going on.

what?.. american made isn't good enough for you?

aw yes - i know what it is... the big 3 don't produce "quality" cars, right? there's no "bang for you buck", yes? i guess their models aren't "sophisticated" enough for some of you snobs, right? Rolling Eyes

and the list of excuses goes on and on.

let me tell you somethin' - i have driven american made vehicles my entire life, and every new one i've ever purchased was a chrysler. have i had problems with them? sure. so what? you gonna tell me you've NEVER had any problems with your saab or your beamer or your suburu or whichever foreign car you drive??? BULLSHIT. no manufacturer is perfect, and i challenge you to beat the level of customer service chrysler shows their customers when problems come up.

the fact is, you - for whatever reason - have decided that american made isn't good enough for you. the economic welfare of the country you claim to love so much got pushed to the side when your own selfish desires weren't being met to your satisfaction. instead of standing your ground and demanding better from the big 3, you snubbed your nose at them and decided to teach them a lesson by purchasing a foreign made car.

so tell me... how's that working for ya? did you accomplish what you set out to do?? do you feel better now???

the bottom line for me is this:

until you drive that piece of foreign metal of yours to your nearest Ford, GM or Chrysler dealership and trade it in, you need to shut the fuck up about the bailout. anything less than this makes you a part of the problem - not the solution.

CV

by Sir Bonvolio Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:11 pm

Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?

by Susan aka CV Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:19 pm

Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?

you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

by Sir Bonvolio Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:22 pm

Susan aka CV wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?
you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

I got that, I understand, but surely, the consumer shouldn't have to choose sub-standard products. I don't see why 'the big three' should automatically have a large market share in a free market.

by **Peregrine(Endangered)** Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:29 pm

Sir Bonvolio wrote:
Susan aka CV wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?
you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

I got that, I understand, but surely, the consumer shouldn't have to choose sub-standard products. I don't see why 'the big three' should automatically have a large market share in a free market.

There is where you are wrong...American cars are built better than ever....I read somewhere that Toyota's reliability has slipped...I will have to search for it. I had a honda that gave me alot of problems...so its just not true that foreign is better...americans just brought into the public relations thats been promoted for them

by Sir Bonvolio Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:31 pm

Yeah sorry, didn't mean sub-standard in quality, I meant overall, that includes marketing, repairs, reliability, fuel economy, etc.

by Susan aka CV Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:49 pm

Sir Bonvolio wrote:
Susan aka CV wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?
you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

I got that, I understand, but surely, the consumer shouldn't have to choose sub-standard products.

sub-standard?? what the hell does that mean?

there's ALWAYS going to be something bigger and better out there. so the question becomes - when is enough ENOUGH?

and what's more important? more ethical? more PATRIOTIC???

i saw something on my way home from that meeting today that i've never noticed before = numerous foreign cars with American flag decals on their window or bumper. how hypocritical is THAT! do these people not think about the effects of what they're doing - or do they not care?

I don't see why 'the big three' should automatically have a large market share in a free market.

it's pretty self explanatory if you look at the U.S. economy. we don't make anything anymore. everything is imported and greed rules it all. free market has to be reigned in if we're ever going to have any chance at all of stabilizing this country.

example: i remember when walmart didn't sell ANYTHING that wasn't made in the U.S.A.. and NOW - you're lucky if you can find anything that IS.

this has to stop.

CV

by **JReed** Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:50 pm

Why should I buy something I consider to be a piece of shit. Sure it looks pretty...but it breaks down very quickly. NO.

Instead I purchased a new Hyundai. It isn't flashy, it isn't expensive, but it has a life-time warranty. How can they do that you might ask...it's because they build quaility. They built it to last. And they priced it competitively.

I've had the car since 2001 and have had exactly zero problems. It has 120,000 miles on it and the dealership thinks it will make 220,000 before I even need to think about a new car. Right now I could probably get 5-7K for my car after almost 8 years. It's tough to get that for an american made car the day after you take it off the lot.

I used to drive an oldsmobile...it broke down at 80,000 miles.
My best friend drove a dodge neon and a jeep grand cherokee...both were constantly in the shop for work.

The American workforce has become fat, lazy, uneducated, and arrogant. They don't take much pride in their work and often times don't do a good job. IMO most of this is the direct result of the unions which support the crappy workers.

That is why I say let them die. Because at the end of the day someone new will step in, buy the plants and make a good car at a good price. Hopefully it will be a nice new, lean organization that does things right. Then we'll see what a quality american product is all about.

So please...don't lecture me about buying American. When the American worker puts out a quality product I'll be there. Until then they shouldn't expect my business. As if I am going to drop 20K on a piece of crap that runs well until the warranty runs out. I wonder why that is...could it be inferior materials that are known to break down at a certain rate????

Am I being a bit harsh...maybe. But we as a country need to get our acts together. That means all of us.

by Big Slick Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:03 pm

Susan, there are about 3 problems with your rant.

First of all the American auto makers are the problem, not the consumer. Sure American cars are just as well built as foreign cars but due to labor unions, labor costs have gone through the roof. Obviously, the car manufacturers have to pay for this somehow, so guess who pays for it? You do. Everytime you buy an overpriced American car, part of that price goes to the over priced labor costs thanks to the labor unions. Don't get me wrong labor unions served a valuable service but their usefullness has passed. They did a good job ensuring everybody was paid a fair wage, and had safe working conditions, but now all they do is inflate labor costs.

These costs get passed through to the consumer so people shopping for cars can buy a well made American car or a well made foreign car. More times than not the foreign car costs less. American car companies priced themselves out of the market for too long and the damage has been done. They are more competitive now than they used to be but it's too little too late.

Secondly, the idea that the money you pay for a foreign car goes straight out of this country is not true. So many car makers have plants in the US that provide Americans with jobs as well as create tax revenue. When a foreign car is purchased very little of it goes back to the home country. Most of that money goes to pay for labor costs, plant costs, utilities, insurance. All of which stimulates the American economy. Some companies such as Toyota build 100% of certain cars in the US. The Tundra, and Corrola are both completely manufactured and assembled in the US.

Finally, the automakers have blurred that line of what is foregn and domestic. You called out people who own Saabs. Saab is a GM company.

Until just recently, Mercedes was a Chrystler company. Is it ok to buy these cars.

My wife owns a Volvo. Are we buying a foreign car? Volvo is a Ford company. So is Jaguar.

So you see it is not the Amercan people's fault these companies failed. Ford, GM, and Chrystler all sell cars overseas just like Toyota, Honda, and Kia sell cars here. It is a global business and their failure is on them not on us. Sorry Susan, but you missed the mark on this one.

by Sir Bonvolio Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:11 pm

JREED, Big Slick, thankyou for saying what I was fantastically failing to do.

Very Happy

by **JReed** Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:59 pm

All I can say to people is...

Let it go.

You're making a bad investment with your time, money, and emotions. We're talking about a corporation, not a way of life. You may think these companies represent a way of life, but they don't.

These bad companies are like an infected limb. Weather it be AIG, Banks, or the auto mfg's. As with any serious infection, sometimes an amputation is necessary to save everything else.

Every corporation in the world has one thing in common......they will always do what is in their own best interests. As George Carlin said: They don't give a fuck about you. And as a manager, I can guarantee you that is true.

As Morphius once said:
"You've got to let it all go Neo...fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind."

Let it go.

by **Grim17** Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:14 pm

I feel for you CV... And Slick, you made some very good points.

My car was built in Marysville, Ohio. It's a Honda Accord. I don't feel the least bit guilty buying a Honda, as I have done exclusively for the last 20 years. They are great cars in every aspect. I have test driven American cars every time I was in the market for a new one, and have never found one that I liked better than a Honda. Every time I purchased one though, I've made sure it was built in America. That is easy to check. Just look at the vin number, and if the letter "J" is in the first 3 digits, it was made in Japan.

That's the best I could do for my country when it came to the car I chose to drive.

by Terry05_99 Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:14 pm

Peregrine(Endangered) wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:
Susan aka CV wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?
you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

I got that, I understand, but surely, the consumer shouldn't have to choose sub-standard products. I don't see why 'the big three' should automatically have a large market share in a free market.

There is where you are wrong...American cars are built better than ever....I read somewhere that Toyota's reliability has slipped...I will have to search for it. I had a honda that gave me alot of problems...so its just not true that foreign is better...americans just brought into the public relations thats been promoted for them

This is not true, you need to look at the recent data, Toyota and Honda far better when it comes to quality. American cars are doing better, there are many fine products. The fact that there is a free market encourages them to compete or lose out on sales. I agree with others here, its not a comsumer issue, its a manufacture issue. They either need to start beating these car companies in quality, research, marketing and every other way or go out of business

by **JReed** Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:46 pm

I would also argue that not buying american and letting these guys go out of business is just as patriotic as buying american for no reason at all.

America is all about opportunity...it's not supposed to be about a free ride.

We're not talking about the poor here. We're talking about a gigantic wasteful corporation.

by **Peregrine(Endangered)** Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:53 pm

Terry05_99 wrote:
Peregrine(Endangered) wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:
Susan aka CV wrote:
Sir Bonvolio wrote:Surely it's 'the big three's problem' because they have struggled to compete with the overseas competition?
you're missing the point sir...

this isn't rocket science. if americans would buy american made cars, the money would remain HERE - to support the U.S. economy - and the big 3 would only need to compete with each other.

CV

I got that, I understand, but surely, the consumer shouldn't have to choose sub-standard products. I don't see why 'the big three' should automatically have a large market share in a free market.

There is where you are wrong...American cars are built better than ever....I read somewhere that Toyota's reliability has slipped...I will have to search for it. I had a honda that gave me alot of problems...so its just not true that foreign is better...americans just brought into the public relations thats been promoted for them

This is not true, you need to look at the recent data, Toyota and Honda far better when it comes to quality. American cars are doing better, there are many fine products. The fact that there is a free market encourages them to compete or lose out on sales. I agree with others here, its not a comsumer issue, its a manufacture issue. They either need to start beating these car companies in quality, research, marketing and every other way or go out of business

Still I based the way I feel on the Honda I brought that gave me so many problems...back and forth to the dealer...sometimes not even making it to the dealership on its own power... .

by **Grim17** Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:53 pm

Just a side note...

The Unions in my opinion, net the same results as government/socialized industries do. The unions take an industry, such as the Auto industry, and make it more costly and less efficient than a non-union auto maker.

More Costly - Union shops make companies pay much higher wages than non-union shops do, along with huge retirement packages and large insurance plans. Those costs are either passed on to the consumer in the way of higher prices, or they have to cut back on amenities and extras to be competitive.

Less Efficiant - When you have a union job that guarantees wage increases, regardless of productivity and performance, you end up with a company with sub-par productivity. There is no motivation for workers to go the extra mile, because their advancements are automatic, not earned. When a person has a union job, their employment is secure no matter how much work they do or how well they do it, so most have no reason in the world to produce a better quality product, or work harder. They are also afforded twice as many paid days off a year, which also adds to the lower productivity and quality of the product a company produces.

It's just like comparing a government run, socialized business, to a private sector business.

by **CarolinaHound** Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:18 pm

What if you buy a used foreign car from an American car lot? I won't buy a new car foreign or domestic. They are not worth the price.

And Grim is right, the unions give the auto company no choice but to charge an outrageous price for a vehicle of less quality. The employees don't have to worry about getting fired, so why should they care about the quality of their work?

by **HotParadox** Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:33 pm

we've got 6 vehicles in the family. my daughter and i drive jeeps. my husband drives a ford truck. the boys drive nisan, honda, and mitsubishi. we bought all the kids' cars; they didn't pick them out b/c they were hs grad gifts. but when my husband and i bought them, we were under the impression that if you buy a used foreign car, it doesn't matter. are we wrong? for what it's worth, i think susan makes a valid point.

by Susan aka CV Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:47 pm

JReed wrote:Why should I buy something I consider to be a piece of shit. Sure it looks pretty...but it breaks down very quickly. NO.

Instead I purchased a new Hyundai. It isn't flashy, it isn't expensive, but it has a life-time warranty. How can they do that you might ask...it's because they build quaility. They built it to last. And they priced it competitively.

I've had the car since 2001 and have had exactly zero problems. It has 120,000 miles on it and the dealership thinks it will make 220,000 before I even need to think about a new car. Right now I could probably get 5-7K for my car after almost 8 years. It's tough to get that for an american made car the day after you take it off the lot.

I used to drive an oldsmobile...it broke down at 80,000 miles.
My best friend drove a dodge neon and a jeep grand cherokee...both were constantly in the shop for work.

The American workforce has become fat, lazy, uneducated, and arrogant. They don't take much pride in their work and often times don't do a good job. IMO most of this is the direct result of the unions which support the crappy workers.

That is why I say let them die. Because at the end of the day someone new will step in, buy the plants and make a good car at a good price. Hopefully it will be a nice new, lean organization that does things right. Then we'll see what a quality american product is all about.

So please...don't lecture me about buying American. When the American worker puts out a quality product I'll be there. Until then they shouldn't expect my business. As if I am going to drop 20K on a piece of crap that runs well until the warranty runs out. I wonder why that is...could it be inferior materials that are known to break down at a certain rate????

Am I being a bit harsh...maybe. But we as a country need to get our acts together. That means all of us.

you know i respect your opinion, j... but i gotta ask you:

what gets accomplished when people sell out to foreign competition instead of demanding more from our own auto manufacturers?

is it the time and effort it sometimes takes to be heard? or what? this is the part i don't get.

i was raised to believe that anything worth having is worth fighting for. so is the success of american made just not worth it?

Question

CV

by Susan aka CV Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:30 pm

Big Slick wrote:Susan, there are about 3 problems with your rant.

First of all the American auto makers are the problem, not the consumer. Sure American cars are just as well built as foreign cars but due to labor unions, labor costs have gone through the roof. Obviously, the car manufacturers have to pay for this somehow, so guess who pays for it? You do. Everytime you buy an overpriced American car, part of that price goes to the over priced labor costs thanks to the labor unions. Don't get me wrong labor unions served a valuable service but their usefullness has passed. They did a good job ensuring everybody was paid a fair wage, and had safe working conditions, but now all they do is inflate labor costs.

These costs get passed through to the consumer so people shopping for cars can buy a well made American car or a well made foreign car. More times than not the foreign car costs less. American car companies priced themselves out of the market for too long and the damage has been done. They are more competitive now than they used to be but it's too little too late.

answer this question.. HONESTLY:
if you had one of these jobs - making the money - job security - safe work environment - health insurance benefits - etc.etc. ----- would you be feel the same way about the UAW?

Secondly, the idea that the money you pay for a foreign car goes straight out of this country is not true. So many car makers have plants in the US that provide Americans with jobs as well as create tax revenue. When a foreign car is purchased very little of it goes back to the home country. Most of that money goes to pay for labor costs, plant costs, utilities, insurance. All of which stimulates the American economy. Some companies such as Toyota build 100% of certain cars in the US. The Tundra, and Corrola are both completely manufactured and assembled in the US.

i'm talking about foreign imported cars, not the ones that are manufactured here. and speaking of that, there's a toyota plant near my brother, and from what i've heard, it's not exactly the best place to work. i.e. safety and sanitation issues; part time workers = no benefits; and more. but oh, that doesn't matter, does it. i forgot - screw the american auto worker.

Finally, the automakers have blurred that line of what is foregn and domestic. You called out people who own Saabs. Saab is a GM company.

Until just recently, Mercedes was a Chrystler company. Is it ok to buy these cars.

My wife owns a Volvo. Are we buying a foreign car? Volvo is a Ford company. So is Jaguar.

swedish manufactured saab = gm.. not much longer
mercedes = chrysler... no more
u.k. manufactured jaguar = ford... not much longer
swedish manufactured volvo = ford... possibly not much longer

these are good moves.

So you see it is not the Amercan people's fault these companies failed. Ford, GM, and Chrystler all sell cars overseas just like Toyota, Honda, and Kia sell cars here. It is a global business and their failure is on them not on us. Sorry Susan, but you missed the mark on this one.

you're entitled to your opinion slick. your mind is made up = let 'em sink.

i stand by original post 100%.

CV

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:10 am

Grim17 wrote:I feel for you CV

care to elaborate on that grim?

... And Slick, you made some very good points.

My car was built in Marysville, Ohio. It's a Honda Accord. I don't feel the least bit guilty buying a Honda, as I have done exclusively for the last 20 years. They are great cars in every aspect. I have test driven American cars every time I was in the market for a new one, and have never found one that I liked better than a Honda. Every time I purchased one though, I've made sure it was built in America. That is easy to check. Just look at the vin number, and if the letter "J" is in the first 3 digits, it was made in Japan.

That's the best I could do for my country when it came to the car I chose to drive.

i suppose nobody should expect more than your best........

CV

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:16 am

JReed wrote:I would also argue that not buying american and letting these guys go out of business is just as patriotic as buying american for no reason at all.

America is all about opportunity...it's not supposed to be about a free ride.

We're not talking about the poor here. We're talking about a gigantic wasteful corporation.

no j... you're talking about 2.2 million of your FELLOW AMERICANS who - for the most part - go to work every fucking day and put in an honest day's work for a wage and benefits that most people would give their right arm for.

you guys amaze me. you're willing to turn your back on millions because of the job abuse of a few thousand. WTF.

CV

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:31 am

Grim17 wrote:Just a side note...

The Unions in my opinion, net the same results as government/socialized industries do. The unions take an industry, such as the Auto industry, and make it more costly and less efficient than a non-union auto maker.

More Costly - Union shops make companies pay much higher wages than non-union shops do, along with huge retirement packages and large insurance plans. Those costs are either passed on to the consumer in the way of higher prices, or they have to cut back on amenities and extras to be competitive.

Less Efficiant - When you have a union job that guarantees wage increases, regardless of productivity and performance, you end up with a company with sub-par productivity. There is no motivation for workers to go the extra mile, because their advancements are automatic, not earned. When a person has a union job, their employment is secure no matter how much work they do or how well they do it, so most have no reason in the world to produce a better quality product, or work harder. They are also afforded twice as many paid days off a year, which also adds to the lower productivity and quality of the product a company produces.

It's just like comparing a government run, socialized business, to a private sector business.

hey grim... here's a little info on those precious honda factories here in the states - mostly ohio. this is what happens when autoworkers have no union. is this really the way you want to see workers treated?

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/058/RipOff0058471.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/252/ripoff0252859.htm

CV

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:36 am

CarolinaHound wrote:What if you buy a used foreign car from an American car lot? I won't buy a new car foreign or domestic. They are not worth the price.

imo, used off of an American lot is fine. it was most likely a trade in on a new american made car.

kudos to whomever traded it in. cheers

CV

by **PaulM** Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:43 am

To my knowledge Ford hasn't asked for a bail-out... yet. Marcia & I drive Fords... I drive a 99' Taurus & she drives an 03' Explorer. Both cars have been very good... reliable and low maintenance. HOWEVER, we have no product loyalty other than what gives us good service. We've owned Toyota, Honda and Subaru, as well as Chrysler and GM. The GM and Chrysler were pretty poor on performance/service. The Japanese vehicles were great... we just wore them out. We got good deals on the Fords so now it's Ford & they're proving themselves.
My point: It's not about nationality... it's about product performance. GM & Chrysler sucked... the Japanese were great & Ford is also doing an excellent job. Coincidence? I don't think so.
GM & Chrysler have a poor track record with us so, IMO, they're out... they did this to themselves by making a poor product. It's the market in action.

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:49 am

HotParadox wrote:we've got 6 vehicles in the family. my daughter and i drive jeeps. my husband drives a ford truck. the boys drive nisan, honda, and mitsubishi. we bought all the kids' cars; they didn't pick them out b/c they were hs grad gifts. but when my husband and i bought them, we were under the impression that if you buy a used foreign car, it doesn't matter. are we wrong?

i say you're doing your part, hp. what you didn't spend on american made cars is surely getting made up in insurance premiums!! ouch... Shocked

btw - i love my jeep.. you?

for what it's worth, i think susan makes a valid point.

CV

by **PaulM** Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:55 am

You're absolutely right HP... the purchase of a used car helps your local economy since the lot/dealership is, in most cases, locally owned.

by Susan aka CV Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:01 am

PaulM wrote:To my knowledge Ford hasn't asked for a bail-out... yet. Marcia & I drive Fords... I drive a 99' Taurus & she drives an 03' Explorer.

The GM and Chrysler were pretty poor on performance/service.

out of curiosity paul, how did you handle the problems you had with these vehicles?

CV

by **PaulM** Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:08 am

Susan aka CV wrote:
PaulM wrote:To my knowledge Ford hasn't asked for a bail-out... yet. Marcia & I drive Fords... I drive a 99' Taurus & she drives an 03' Explorer.

The GM and Chrysler were pretty poor on performance/service.
out of curiosity paul, how did you handle the problems you had with these vehicles?

CV

The "traditional" way... we had the vehicles repaired until it became too expensive to continue to do so Smile

In the end the GM needed a transmission and the Chrysler needed an engine. The GM was junked and the Chrysler was traded in for the Taurus and a 97 (I think) Ford Aspire. The Aspire was of poor quality and died after about 1 year. It was traded for a Ford Ranger (good truck)... but we needed something with towing capacity so that was traded for the Explorer after a few years.

by **HotParadox** Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:17 am

PaulM wrote:You're absolutely right HP... the purchase of a used car helps your local economy since the lot/dealership is, in most cases, locally owned.

good, thanks paul. Like a Star @ heaven

by **HotParadox** Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:29 am

Susan aka CV wrote:
HotParadox wrote:we've got 6 vehicles in the family. my daughter and i drive jeeps. my husband drives a ford truck. the boys drive nisan, honda, and mitsubishi. we bought all the kids' cars; they didn't pick them out b/c they were hs grad gifts. but when my husband and i bought them, we were under the impression that if you buy a used foreign car, it doesn't matter. are we wrong?
i say you're doing your part, hp. what you didn't spend on american made cars is surely getting made up in insurance premiums!! ouch...

btw - i love my jeep.. you?

for what it's worth, i think susan makes a valid point.

CV

oh, ive been driving jeeps for 15 years now. love them. my only complaint is i like a stick. my first jeep was a new standard and i ended up trading this new truck w/i 6 months. the thing didn't move, it was a big jeep with a 4 cylinder engine! crazy. i traded it for an automatic, much better. i'm pretty used to automatics now, although now you can special order a 6 cyl stick. the boys cars are all sticks, every now and then, i take one of them for a spin. i don't think i'll ever buy another new car, tbh, again.

you don't want to know about my insurance premiums.

by Americanadian Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:48 am

HotParadox wrote:oh, ive been driving jeeps for 15 years now. love them. my only complaint is i like a stick. my first jeep was a new standard and i ended up trading this new truck w/i 6 months. the thing didn't move, it was a big jeep with a 4 cylinder engine! crazy. i traded it for an automatic, much better. i'm pretty used to automatics now, although now you can special order a 6 cyl stick. the boys cars are all sticks, every now and then, i take one of them for a spin. i don't think i'll ever buy another new car, tbh, again.

you don't want to know about my insurance premiums.

A woman who likes to drive a stick...go figure. LOL! Razz

by **HotParadox** Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:11 am

Americanadian wrote:
HotParadox wrote:oh, ive been driving jeeps for 15 years now. love them. my only complaint is i like a stick. my first jeep was a new standard and i ended up trading this new truck w/i 6 months. the thing didn't move, it was a big jeep with a 4 cylinder engine! crazy. i traded it for an automatic, much better. i'm pretty used to automatics now, although now you can special order a 6 cyl stick. the boys cars are all sticks, every now and then, i take one of them for a spin. i don't think i'll ever buy another new car, tbh, again.

you don't want to know about my insurance premiums.

A woman who likes to drive a stick...go figure. LOL!

i know. real driving is to know how to drive a stick. to understand what is going on, and to have an active part in what's going on is important to me and that's what i wanted for my kids. i got my license on one. i taught my boys how to drive and they all learned on my standard, and they got their licenses on it. they dislike automatics, too. my daughter didn't want to learn, so i taught her on my automatic. when i met my husband, he had an automatic muscle car/a camaro, i had a standard nisan. he had never driven a standard but i taught him. he hates driving a standard. maybe that's the teacher's fault. Very Happy

by Americanadian Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:52 am

Well, I shall add my two bits here.

This is a tough issue with me in a few aspects. I'm a car collector. I love 'em all for various reasons. I must say that I always drive an American made vehicle on a regular basis. Trucks have always been one of the Big 3 other than the one Mazda P/U I had (RIP) although the Mazda was a great little truck. I would still take a GMC Z71 any day over the Mazda. I also owned a Ford Explorer and I vow to buy another one in the near future.

Concerning the cars; I have a few Mazda RX-7 models which I collect only because I like the shape and because the Rotary motor isn't available from any other manufacturer. I've owned Mustangs, Trans Am's, Malibus; well, I've owned a few hundred vehicles in less than 10 years so I have owned many. Most of them were domestic vehicles.

I prefer to stick to American made vehicles, because that's the way I was raised and I will continue because I have had great success with most of them. There have been a few mishaps with some, but all manufacturers have some vehicles which contain weaknesses. The amount of testing the manufacturers conduct on their vehicles prior to being available on a car lot is astounding. They know exactly how long each part will last on average and more. They could easily make cars more reliable and durable, but the parts industry is big money as well. So the inherent weaknesses we are subjected to from any manufacturer is for industry and business. Some companies choose to do certain things intentionally because they know how the majority of people think. For example:

Overdrive transmissions in most vehicles are not meant to be driven in town. It is for highway/interstate driving only and even then, only on flat stretches or downhill. DO NOT tow a trailer or be fully loaded. The overdrive feature is not designed to bear the strain of such cases, nor is it to be constantly shifting in and out of drive/overdrive when driving in town. This was confirmed to be by more than one transmission shop. Anyone can inquire of a local shop as well. Since most people don't read the manufacturer's manual about their vehicle, this is overlooked. Most people get in, and when it's time to move, they'll pick the closest "D" to the neutral position. In GM's case. anyway. Dodge had to shift manually for most of the 90's and Ford did so for the late 80's. Ford and Dodge changed their format later on. Ford was the worst for this. They went from manual overdrive selection to a push button format. It only has one "D" on the gear shift selector but in order to activate/deactivate the overdrive, one had to push the button. Now, Ford designed their overdrive to be on automatically upon each time the vehicle was started. One would think that Ford would do the opposite. However, since they know how people think, they know that eventually, a new transmission will be required after driving the vehicle in overdrive constantly. Sneaky, huh?

Foreign vehicles for many years were weak, body wise. They rusted out rather easily. Today, they're stronger in that regard. Ford engines tended to have weak oil seals and would almost always be leaking oil from somewhere. GM engines were reliable as hell, but the valve seals would dry out in the small block V8's and the 4.3L V6 so one would see a little blue smoke puffing out of the tailpipe when it was cold. But it subsided.

Dodge minivans from their inception in 1984 had weak transmissions up until 2000. This not only affected the minivans, but other models of cars as well. It was mostly the 3.0L V6 drive train and 3.3L V6 drive train. The 2.6L Mitsubishi 4 cylinder drive train wasn't any better. The 2.2L 4 cylinder motors were susceptible to head gasket failure. But the Ford 1.6L & 2.3L fared no better. The 1.6L engines were horrible until they later upgraded to the 1.9L using the same block.

In the mid to late 90's, GM had major engine problems with their V6 lineup. The 3.1L, 3.4L and some 3.8L engines were susceptible to intake manifold gasket failure and head gasket failure. This was due to the Dexcool antifreeze/coolant combined with weak factory gaskets to begin with. GM was sued for billions in the US and Canada. I believe this is when GM began to take a serious downturn. The once ultra reliable GM was fast becoming another Ford or Dodge product with sub par reliability. In fact, Dodge almost went bankrupt in the late 70's. The "K-Car" is credited with saving their hides, which didn't go into production until 1981. And to be honest, there was the odd K-Car that wasn't an outright piece of garbage. 1986-1989 weren't too bad.

All of the small cars manufactured by the Big 3 in the 80's were weak and definitely not as reliable as the larger models with the V6 or V8 drive trains. This is where the foreign automakers began to establish a market in North America. While the metal used in the foreign vehicles was inferior to that of the Big 3's metal, the technology possessed by the Japanese, for example, quickly gained popularity due to their "bullet proof" engines. Oil change once a year? No problem. Only the Chevy Cavalier kept pace with the foreign cars.

When Hyundai entered the market in the mid 80's, it was a joke. I used to watch those cars belch blue smoke constantly even when they were only a few years old (indicating piston rings worn or valve guides completely gone) not to mention the rust that would appear out of nowhere. I owned two Hyundai's years ago for the purpose of turning a small profit. Both were junk and the profit was small. After observing Hyundai for years, I would never buy one to drive, or sell (I have a conscience). They have greatly improved, but they will never be a Honda, Toyota, Mazda or Nissan. I won't even get started with Kia, another low grade go-cart with an inflated price tag. Sure they offer good warranties. As well they should. When the interior door handles begin falling off after 15,000 miles, it's a sign to trade it in ASAP!

The biggest bone-of-contention I have with the Big 3 is their price structure and depreciation. The price of their vehicles should be less in order to be comparable to the foreign vehicles. Many people are buying Honda and Toyota because the depreciation factor is minute. Price and reliability are two major factors in the auto industry. No one wants a vehicle that would break down.

What I love about the Big 3 is their retro cars. The Ford Mustang and Dodge Challenger are two contenders in my book. All three companies make some good trucks and SUV's....

The main thing is to buy something around 3 years old and someone else took most of the depreciation hit rather than you.

Okay...I yakked enough for now. Very Happy

If I keep going it'll be a novel. Rolling Eyes

by Americanadian Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:55 am

HotParadox wrote:
Americanadian wrote:
HotParadox wrote:oh, ive been driving jeeps for 15 years now. love them. my only complaint is i like a stick. my first jeep was a new standard and i ended up trading this new truck w/i 6 months. the thing didn't move, it was a big jeep with a 4 cylinder engine! crazy. i traded it for an automatic, much better. i'm pretty used to automatics now, although now you can special order a 6 cyl stick. the boys cars are all sticks, every now and then, i take one of them for a spin. i don't think i'll ever buy another new car, tbh, again.

you don't want to know about my insurance premiums.

A woman who likes to drive a stick...go figure. LOL!
i know. real driving is to know how to drive a stick. to understand what is going on, and to have an active part in what's going on is important to me and that's what i wanted for my kids. i got my license on one. i taught my boys how to drive and they all learned on my standard, and they got their licenses on it. they dislike automatics, too. my daughter didn't want to learn, so i taught her on my automatic. when i met my husband, he had an automatic muscle car/a camaro, i had a standard nisan. he had never driven a standard but i taught him. he hates driving a standard. maybe that's the teacher's fault.

All of my RX-7's are standard. The larger domestic sports cars I owned were automatics. There wasn't an abundance of manual transmissions in the GM cars back then. Just install a nice shift kit and that's a load of fun.

by Terry05_99 Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:21 am

The table above represents the brands with the fewest problems reported in the first 90 days of ownership, according to an initial quality study by J.D. Power and Associates. More than 81,500 vehicle owners and lessees of new 2008-model-year cars and trucks were surveyed

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=iqs&story=iqsCar

by **JReed** Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:27 am

CV,

I think the only way to help those companies is to let them go under. Then they can restructure and do what they need to do to compete.

What is learned if we the tax payer just bail them out? Let me tell you what they learn…they learn they can do a shitty job and still get a big bonus. They learn that they can fuck up beyond belief and still get a fat bonus. They learn that they don’t have to be competent to make millions. And those union workers learn that they can be lazy and still demand more. They learn that doing a crappy job qualifies them for a hand-out. That’s what they learn.

These companies have proven for years that they do not belong in the market. I drove American for a while…and it sucked. The car was a piece of garbage.

Sometimes it takes a very hard experience to learn the lesson that needs to be learned. And that is something I know from personal experience. Learning a lesson the hard way is certainly more challenging...but that lesson is learned forever.

I mean really…what lesson is learned if I as an American buy a car I know to be crap just because an American built it?

Maybe I am just getting nasty in my old age (33). But I have less faith and confidence in the American worker than I EVER have. We as a society are fat, lazy, and often times incompetent. We’re considered dirty Americans across the globe because in our laziness we expect everyone to conform to our desires.

We have this ridiculous entitlement mentality and for some reason think that the government should take care of us. It’s total bullshit. What happened to the get up and go we used to have? What happened to the American spirit and American dream? The American dream was built upon opportunity and taking advantage of that opportunity. It wasn't predicated on the government taking care of us in retirement. What the fuck is that all about??? That's all recent crap instituted by our incompetent government.

We're removing all incentive to do a good job...the one thing that made this country great. One of the reasons others looked up to us. And you expect me to not only stand by and watch that degrade into nothingness...you’re asking me to support it with my own money. NO. I will not. Not now...not ever. I will keep my expectations and standards high knowing that is the only way for us to improve. Otherwise all we’re doing is breeding a bunch of fat lazy idiots that can’t think for themselves.

To quote a great movie…
“Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hat me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. To me, you are all equally worthless!!! Do you magots understand that? … Bullshit, sound off like you’ve got a pair.”

Answer me this…The problems with the auto shops has been going on for quite a while. The managers know it, the workers know it, we all know it. How many of those auto workers in the union have gone back to school during this time? The union makes sure they get a great wage. I bet many get tuition reimbursement. How many do you think are preparing for their own future by getting a better education so they can get a better or new job if theirs is gone tomorrow. Perhaps an online course or two? Some small certification to help out? Anything….?
I know you can’t possibly answer that…but I am willing to bet that very very few have done that. And that is because they EXPECT to be taken care of…..by all of us.

They are a corporation and nothing more. They need to go bankrupt. If they can reverse course after that, great. If not, oh well. Those people all have the chance to change their futures right now. They are getting paid as we speak.

by Terry05_99 Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:30 am

World Car of the Year Announces Top Ten Finalists

Celebrating its fifth annual awards program, the World Car of the Year, held in conjunction with the New York International Auto Show, is pleased to announce this year's top ten finalists.

The 2009 World Car finalists are:

Audi A4 / Avant
BMW 7 Series
Citroen C5 Sedan / C5 Tourer
Fiat 500
Ford Fiesta
Honda Fit / Jazz
Jaguar XF
Mazda Atenza / Mazda6
Nissan GT-R
Toyota iQ
Volkswagen Golf VI

Vehicles are selected and voted on by a volunteer jury of close to 50 distinguished automotive journalists representing many of the world's most renowned automotive outlets. All jurors hold significant stature with their own regions and countries, which include: Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Britain, Canada, China, France, Germany, Great Britain, Greece, India, Italy, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, New Zealand, Poland, Russia, Sweden, Turkey, and the United States.

There was a tie for tenth place, that is why thee are 11 entries

by Terry05_99 Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:37 am

JReed wrote:CV,

I think the only way to help those companies is to let them go under. Then they can restructure and do what they need to do to compete.

What is learned if we the tax payer just bail them out? Let me tell you what they learn…they learn they can do a shitty job and still get a big bonus. They learn that they can fuck up beyond belief and still get a fat bonus. They learn that they don’t have to be competent to make millions. And those union workers learn that they can be lazy and still demand more. They learn that doing a crappy job qualifies them for a hand-out. That’s what they learn.

These companies have proven for years that they do not belong in the market. I drove American for a while…and it sucked. The car was a piece of garbage.

Sometimes it takes a very hard experience to learn the lesson that needs to be learned. And that is something I know from personal experience. Learning a lesson the hard way is certainly more challenging...but that lesson is learned forever.

I mean really…what lesson is learned if I as an American buy a car I know to be crap just because an American built it?

Maybe I am just getting nasty in my old age (33). But I have less faith and confidence in the American worker than I EVER have. We as a society are fat, lazy, and often times incompetent. We’re considered dirty Americans across the globe because in our laziness we expect everyone to conform to our desires.

We have this ridiculous entitlement mentality and for some reason think that the government should take care of us. It’s total bullshit. What happened to the get up and go we used to have? What happened to the American spirit and American dream? The American dream was built upon opportunity and taking advantage of that opportunity. It wasn't predicated on the government taking care of us in retirement. What the fuck is that all about??? That's all recent crap instituted by our incompetent government.

We're removing all incentive to do a good job...the one thing that made this country great. One of the reasons others looked up to us. And you expect me to not only stand by and watch that degrade into nothingness...you’re asking me to support it with my own money. NO. I will not. Not now...not ever. I will keep my expectations and standards high knowing that is the only way for us to improve. Otherwise all we’re doing is breeding a bunch of fat lazy idiots that can’t think for themselves.

To quote a great movie…
“Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hat me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. To me, you are all equally worthless!!! Do you magots understand that? … Bullshit, sound off like you’ve got a pair.”

Answer me this…The problems with the auto shops has been going on for quite a while. The managers know it, the workers know it, we all know it. How many of those auto workers in the union have gone back to school during this time? The union makes sure they get a great wage. I bet many get tuition reimbursement. How many do you think are preparing for their own future by getting a better education so they can get a better or new job if theirs is gone tomorrow. Perhaps an online course or two? Some small certification to help out? Anything….?
I know you can’t possibly answer that…but I am willing to bet that very very few have done that. And that is because they EXPECT to be taken care of…..by all of us.

They are a corporation and nothing more. They need to go bankrupt. If they can reverse course after that, great. If not, oh well. Those people all have the chance to change their futures right now. They are getting paid as we speak.

Yes, well said. I love how they need to buckle down, be more competive. After the government steps in with billions of dollars that they cannot pay back, the auto union workers still recieve FREE legal services. How many of us non auto workers paying the bill for this get free legal services?

by **JReed** Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:38 am

and before I forget...CV I still love ya. And I do respect your opinion. But we're coming at this from two different angles. I am talking about straight what's the best for the country business perspective.
You have an emotional attachment to these companies...that is something I will never ever have. A corporation is nothing but a business entity to me...and it will always do what is in its own best interests without regard to anyone elses well being. period. We will never agree.

The difference it this...in my arrogance I know I am ultimately right. sunny

These companies have run poorly long enough. They need to be replaced.

I have been hardened by my years in corporate america. I am nothing more than a soulless drone wandering through the corporate abyss. :-)

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