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religion law

Post by Old Timer on Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:53 am

I think I once read that there was a movement to make it illegal for anyone to say anything bad against the islam religion here in the states. Does anybody know anything about it? Also any bets on obama giving the muslims the keys to the city.

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Re: religion law

Post by PaulM on Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:47 am

Old Timer wrote:I think I once read that there was a movement to make it illegal for anyone to say anything bad against the islam religion here in the states. Does anybody know anything about it? Also any bets on obama giving the muslims the keys to the city.

I haven't heard anything about that... where did you hear it? Given the current "political correctness" trend it wouldn't surprise me though.

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Re: religion law

Post by Big Slick on Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:26 am

I've heard a little about it but it's not really like you say.

It's called a Hate Sppech Law and it would protect any group from being targeted for hate speech. This would include Muslim, Jews, Homosexuals. As well as Christians, and Heterosexuals, and women. I'll try to find more but that's all I got right now.
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Re: religion law

Post by Big Slick on Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:29 am

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Re: religion law

Post by DM007 on Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:56 pm

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Anyone recognize this? Read it lately? Apparently, some have not. We, as free American citizens, have an inalienable right to free speech, even if others don't like what we say. I must have missed the parts about "speech regarding religion", "ethnic hatred", or even "sexual orientation" or "gender" being the exception.

Words are words. Unless an action is associated to those words, they are only words, also known as "speech". Also, threats are only words, unless there is an intention, ability, means, and motive to act upon them. I think I remember reading about this in one of those other 200 year old ramblings.

What's next? Pet hate speech? Tree hate speech?

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Re: religion law

Post by PaulM on Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:41 pm

Thanks Slick & Dm for answering my question...

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Re: religion law

Post by DM007 on Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:56 pm

PaulM wrote:Thanks Slick & Dm for answering my question...

Sorry I didn't post a source (that was your question...was it not?). Hearing about it is a far cry from hearing about it from a reliable source. I don't consider pundit talking points, MSM outlets repeating what they "heard", or even political discussion between our elected officials "reliable". When a bill is actually up for vote, we can be a bit more specific. For the time being, as far as I'm concerned, it just a Capitol Hill rumor. [optimism] I doubt it'll get legs. I hate to think any American could consider this seriously.....

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Re: religion law

Post by Old Timer on Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:19 pm

DM007 wrote:
PaulM wrote:Thanks Slick & Dm for answering my question...

Sorry I didn't post a source (that was your question...was it not?). Hearing about it is a far cry from hearing about it from a reliable source. I don't consider pundit talking points, MSM outlets repeating what they "heard", or even political discussion between our elected officials "reliable". When a bill is actually up for vote, we can be a bit more specific. For the time being, as far as I'm concerned, it just a Capitol Hill rumor. [optimism] I doubt it'll get legs. I hate to think any American could consider this seriously.....

I thoiught I had read something about the islam thing in an article about the United nations and how the islam groups were trying to get it passed with them first.

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Re: religion law

Post by Kazza on Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:17 pm

DM007 wrote:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Anyone recognize this? Read it lately? Apparently, some have not. We, as free American citizens, have an inalienable right to free speech, even if others don't like what we say. I must have missed the parts about "speech regarding religion", "ethnic hatred", or even "sexual orientation" or "gender" being the exception.

Words are words. Unless an action is associated to those words, they are only words, also known as "speech". Also, threats are only words, unless there is an intention, ability, means, and motive to act upon them. I think I remember reading about this in one of those other 200 year old ramblings.

What's next? Pet hate speech? Tree hate speech?

No country allows absolute free speech. In the US you do not have the right to yell 'fire' in a movie cinema, you do not have the right to say obscene things (no, really, you don't. It's called the Miller test), you do not have the right to slander and you do not have the right to reproduce copyrighted information, . Likewise, speech that is intended to incite violence or hatred is not protected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech


Hate speech is not equivalent with criticism of a religion, a right which should be protected at all costs.
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Re: religion law

Post by CarolinaHound on Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:31 pm

Kazza wrote:
DM007 wrote:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Anyone recognize this? Read it lately? Apparently, some have not. We, as free American citizens, have an inalienable right to free speech, even if others don't like what we say. I must have missed the parts about "speech regarding religion", "ethnic hatred", or even "sexual orientation" or "gender" being the exception.

Words are words. Unless an action is associated to those words, they are only words, also known as "speech". Also, threats are only words, unless there is an intention, ability, means, and motive to act upon them. I think I remember reading about this in one of those other 200 year old ramblings.

What's next? Pet hate speech? Tree hate speech?

No country allows absolute free speech. In the US you do not have the right to yell 'fire' in a movie cinema, you do not have the right to say obscene things (no, really, you don't. It's called the Miller test), you do not have the right to slander and you do not have the right to reproduce copyrighted information, . Likewise, speech that is intended to incite violence or hatred is not protected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech


Hate speech is not equivalent with criticism of a religion, a right which should be protected at all costs.

Here in North Carolina the judge calls that inciting a riot and some silly nonsense about actions that endager the safty and well being of the public something or other. cheers Very Happy

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Re: religion law

Post by PaulM on Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Kazza wrote:
Hate speech is not equivalent with criticism of a religion, a right which should be protected at all costs.
Absolutely... the same goes for the examples given of 'absolute' free speech. The concern... at least as I see it, is that the law will be used to curb criticism of religion or curb religion from criticizing secular issues like gay marriage, etc...
What I think will happen is that the bill will pass & be signed into law because it sounds like the politically correct thing to do. Then someone will go after a religion or political pundit under the auspices of this law. It will eventually go to the Supreme Court where it will be struck down as unconstitutional.

I'm always drawn to the KKK or the American Nazi movement regarding free speech. These groups have the right to speak in public... to hold rallys & solicit members... Free Speech! We also have the right to not attend the rallys or speechs & decline offers of membership... Free Speech.

If passed, I'm certain this law will be abused. Possibly by the very people it is designed to protect.

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Re: religion law

Post by HotParadox on Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Old Timer wrote:I think I once read that there was a movement to make it illegal for anyone to say anything bad against the islam religion here in the states. Does anybody know anything about it? Also any bets on obama giving the muslims the keys to the city.


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Re: religion law

Post by DM007 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:03 am

There is no law against someone yelling "fire" in a theater, if there is a fire, or if a person has a reasonable belief there is a fire. It isn't "hate speech", in any case. Doesn't apply to the discussion.

Liable and slander are different issues, as well. They are only contestable, civilly, if the victim so chooses. No law exists, in regards to L/S.

Inciting a riot is different. Intent must be expressed (as opposed to implied), and there must be a victim who suffered damages. Using the theater/fire example, if a person were to yell fire in a theater (with no fire), and no one tries to leave or panic because of it, no offense exists.

Plagiarism is a civil tort, but only if there is a complaining victim. It isn't a crime. Copyright laws are only guidelines for civil procedure.

We Americans DO have absolute freedom of speech. However, there will always be accountability for actions that bring harm to others. This doesn't apply to the speech itself. For now, anyway.

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Re: religion law

Post by CarolinaHound on Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:50 am

DM007 wrote:There is no law against someone yelling "fire" in a theater, if there is a fire, or if a person has a reasonable belief there is a fire. It isn't "hate speech", in any case. Doesn't apply to the discussion.

Liable and slander are different issues, as well. They are only contestable, civilly, if the victim so chooses. No law exists, in regards to L/S.

Inciting a riot is different. Intent must be expressed (as opposed to implied), and there must be a victim who suffered damages. Using the theater/fire example, if a person were to yell fire in a theater (with no fire), and no one tries to leave or panic because of it, no offense exists.

Plagiarism is a civil tort, but only if there is a complaining victim. It isn't a crime. Copyright laws are only guidelines for civil procedure.

We Americans DO have absolute freedom of speech. However, there will always be accountability for actions that bring harm to others. This doesn't apply to the speech itself. For now, anyway.

That's right. Wink

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Re: religion law

Post by Old Timer on Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:57 am

CarolinaHound wrote:
DM007 wrote:There is no law against someone yelling "fire" in a theater, if there is a fire, or if a person has a reasonable belief there is a fire. It isn't "hate speech", in any case. Doesn't apply to the discussion.

Liable and slander are different issues, as well. They are only contestable, civilly, if the victim so chooses. No law exists, in regards to L/S.

Inciting a riot is different. Intent must be expressed (as opposed to implied), and there must be a victim who suffered damages. Using the theater/fire example, if a person were to yell fire in a theater (with no fire), and no one tries to leave or panic because of it, no offense exists.

Plagiarism is a civil tort, but only if there is a complaining victim. It isn't a crime. Copyright laws are only guidelines for civil procedure.

We Americans DO have absolute freedom of speech. However, there will always be accountability for actions that bring harm to others. This doesn't apply to the speech itself. For now, anyway.

That's right. Wink

Shouldn't that harm to others also include a politicians speech and promises.

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Re: religion law

Post by CarolinaHound on Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:16 pm

Old Timer wrote:
CarolinaHound wrote:
DM007 wrote:There is no law against someone yelling "fire" in a theater, if there is a fire, or if a person has a reasonable belief there is a fire. It isn't "hate speech", in any case. Doesn't apply to the discussion.

Liable and slander are different issues, as well. They are only contestable, civilly, if the victim so chooses. No law exists, in regards to L/S.

Inciting a riot is different. Intent must be expressed (as opposed to implied), and there must be a victim who suffered damages. Using the theater/fire example, if a person were to yell fire in a theater (with no fire), and no one tries to leave or panic because of it, no offense exists.

Plagiarism is a civil tort, but only if there is a complaining victim. It isn't a crime. Copyright laws are only guidelines for civil procedure.

We Americans DO have absolute freedom of speech. However, there will always be accountability for actions that bring harm to others. This doesn't apply to the speech itself. For now, anyway.

That's right. Wink

Shouldn't that harm to others also include a politicians speech and promises.

It should, but unfortunatly making a promise is not an action that they consider causing a harm. Personally I think it should be illegal for any of the to make any promises, or at least make it possible for the people to sue them for breach of an oral contract.

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Re: religion law

Post by Old Timer on Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:41 am

CarolinaHound wrote:
Old Timer wrote:
CarolinaHound wrote:
DM007 wrote:There is no law against someone yelling "fire" in a theater, if there is a fire, or if a person has a reasonable belief there is a fire. It isn't "hate speech", in any case. Doesn't apply to the discussion.

Liable and slander are different issues, as well. They are only contestable, civilly, if the victim so chooses. No law exists, in regards to L/S.

Inciting a riot is different. Intent must be expressed (as opposed to implied), and there must be a victim who suffered damages. Using the theater/fire example, if a person were to yell fire in a theater (with no fire), and no one tries to leave or panic because of it, no offense exists.

Plagiarism is a civil tort, but only if there is a complaining victim. It isn't a crime. Copyright laws are only guidelines for civil procedure.

We Americans DO have absolute freedom of speech. However, there will always be accountability for actions that bring harm to others. This doesn't apply to the speech itself. For now, anyway.

That's right. Wink

Shouldn't that harm to others also include a politicians speech and promises.

It should, but unfortunatly making a promise is not an action that they consider causing a harm. Personally I think it should be illegal for any of the to make any promises, or at least make it possible for the people to sue them for breach of an oral contract.

You can probably take them to court and sue them for breach of promise and getting elected under false pretenses. Ya might not win but it sure might wake them up.

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Re: religion law

Post by Night-Reaper on Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:15 pm

Big Slick wrote:I've heard a little about it but it's not really like you say.

It's called a Hate Sppech Law and it would protect any group from being targeted for hate speech. This would include Muslim, Jews, Homosexuals. As well as Christians, and Heterosexuals, and women. I'll try to find more but that's all I got right now.
This definetly goes against the Constitution's Freedom of Speech!
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Re: religion law

Post by HotParadox on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:06 pm

Night-Reaper wrote:
Big Slick wrote:I've heard a little about it but it's not really like you say.

It's called a Hate Sppech Law and it would protect any group from being targeted for hate speech. This would include Muslim, Jews, Homosexuals. As well as Christians, and Heterosexuals, and women. I'll try to find more but that's all I got right now.
This definetly goes against the Constitution's Freedom of Speech!
totally agree w/you, n-r. i don't like it when people make fun of my faith, but i would not like it even more if it were against the law to.
up here, recently there was a talk show guy, jay severin, who got axed for 'hate speech' towards mexicans. he's since been rehired by the station, but he had to make a public apology, yada yada.
his name is jay severin and he is a libertarian, not a right wing nut case, but the dems have him labeled as such.
jay severin is the 57th top 100 talk show hosts in the us. google him, and you will see how the media is aghast that he made remarks about mexicans, and how he is a 'flaming, right wing nut job'. really, if they ever listened to him, he is all about the us constitution and like i said, he is a libertarian.
in my opinion, he is a patriot who was punished for free speech.

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